Price Alert: Bitcoin heading toward €10,000

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Guys
I don't know a thing about bitcoin, so forgive the naivety of my question.
I understand that bitcoin can be viewed either as an investment or as a replacement for conventional currencies. If I consider it as an investment, I want it to increase in value by as much and as quickly as possible. If I consider it as a currency, I want it to have a reasonably stable value, so that I can know with reasonable confidence how many loaves of bread I can buy for a bitcoin or how many bitcoins it will cost me to buy a car (definitely not a Tesla in my case!). How can these apparently conflicting objectives be reconciled?
 
Guys
I don't know a thing about bitcoin, so forgive the naivety of my question.
I understand that bitcoin can be viewed either as an investment or as a replacement for conventional currencies. If I consider it as an investment, I want it to increase in value by as much and as quickly as possible. If I consider it as a currency, I want it to have a reasonably stable value, so that I can know with reasonable confidence how many loaves of bread I can buy for a bitcoin or how many bitcoins it will cost me to buy a car (definitely not a Tesla in my case!). How can these apparently conflicting objectives be reconciled?
Hi Colm. I'd be inclined to think of it as another option that sits alongside conventional currencies rather than a replacement (but views differ on that too). Your point is well made and absolutely valid.

Gold isn't easily divisible anyway but lets just assume for the sake of argument that it is. In theory then, it should make for a good means of exchange. However, if people were to try to use it as a means of exchange in the 70s, it would have been incredibly volatile - something that destroys utility as a means of exchange. From the start of that decade until its close, gold had risen 2,300%. Within that, it had seen spikes and corrections in the double digits.

My point is that gold was incredibly volatile then - as bitcoin is now. Were it somehow divisible back then, then it would be equally challenged as bitcoin is today for use as a medium of exchange due to volatility. Yet it is much more stable today (save more recent months but that's more to do with the weakness of fiat currencies than an issue with gold itself).

Rome wasn't build in a day and we can't expect something that is the cornerstone of civilisation (money and the exchange of value) to be turned upside down just like that. Bitcoin is an immature asset - that is formative in the role of a store of value, digital gold and a hedge against fiat currency in its own right. There's speculative interest in it as a consequence of that. The technology is being improved upon, the infrastructure is being built out, regulation is getting teased out, etc. Adoption will continue - and the expectation is that the overall bitcoin market cap ($207 billion) will expand. As it expands and as it settles, that market will be far harder to move. It should be far less volatile. That process is already in play. Over it's 11 years, https://en.longhash.com/news/data-shows-bitcoins-price-volatility-has-been-declining-over-its-10-year-history (bitcoin volatility has been reducing). It has a long way to go - but that's a process that is expected to play out over years.

For right now, some people accept bitcoin payments on the basis that they understand and are happy to deal with that volatility. I appreciate that there are practicalities in trade where that's just not feasible. However, if we were to accept that bitcoin will first achieve that store of value use case as a separate asset in its own right alongside gold, then it also brings extra features to the table. It's easily divisible, it's possible to self custody, it's portable and it can be transacted in real time on a peer to peer basis - with both parties being present or the other party being the other side of the planet. If we accept that it's going to be around and continue to be around and be used in that way, businesses may increasingly decide to accept it through services such as Bitpay. Bitpay and others offer the vendor the option to convert bitcoin sales revenue to fiat if they prefer.

I'd much rather that they don't convert it back - but there are other reasons besides volatility as to why there's a need for that (paying suppliers and others in fiat). However, I'm quite happy to see this type of mechanism as a form of bootstrapping to broaden the bitcoin economy. Over the last 18 months, we're also seeing a plethora of crypto credit and debit cards hit the market. Again, I'd prefer if there wasn't a need - but being realistic, it's necessary to have this - it's a positive thing. Bitcoin was borne into a world that has had fiat in place for years. Although it's a parallel, separate system, those of us that want to see it expand can't ignore the existing fiat system. It's helpful if there are abilities to exchange between the two for a time at least - in order to grow this.

Vijay Boyapati explains how this process is likely to pan out going forward - far better than I can articulate. You can find his scribblings here - it's well worth the read in coming to a conclusion on the question that you've posed.

Good tip Wolfie
No drama here that hasn't been discussed ad nauseum. It's an example of a small $200 billion market being moved. That is in no way unique to bitcoin - it speaks to market size. As bitcoin market cap expands, that - alongside volatility generally - will dissipate. As it stands today, bitcoin is still 60% up year to date.
 
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Unfortunately not. I couldn’t tell whether it was a tip or a challenge. I see now it was a tip. I hope you filled your boots.

No not this time, I think I read somewhere of someones strategy to short bitcoin at €10,000?
They would be up a few bob today.

The last time I offered my position on bitcoin was in the 'Bitcoin (digital gold) crashing' thread.
On the 14th March 2020, when bitcoin was priced circa €4,500, I wrote;

The magic Fiat money trees are in season.
Bitcoin, is still 45% up year on year. Not bad in the midst of a pending economic crisis.
Time to buy some more.

Not for the first time has the value of my bitcoin holding doubled.
 
Guys
I don't know a thing about bitcoin, so forgive the naivety of my question.
I understand that bitcoin can be viewed either as an investment or as a replacement for conventional currencies. If I consider it as an investment, I want it to increase in value by as much and as quickly as possible. If I consider it as a currency, I want it to have a reasonably stable value, so that I can know with reasonable confidence how many loaves of bread I can buy for a bitcoin or how many bitcoins it will cost me to buy a car (definitely not a Tesla in my case!). How can these apparently conflicting objectives be reconciled?
Colm, we should split "investment" into two categories (a) speculative and (b) store of value. We have right here on AAM living examples of both varieties. Wolfie admits that bitcoin could go to zero but he is bullish that it will shoot the lights out. He has, in his own words, a small punt on that happening. Wolfie is a speculator, which might jar a little with his Shortie world view. tecate on the other hand is an out and out "store of value" man (apologies for not being gender neutral).
Figures from the MSO show that over 98% of bitcoin trades are speculative. This is surely unique. Every asset has to some degree a speculative aspect e.g. Gold, but can an entity sustain a price indefinitely on speculation alone?
For the answer to this we look to one of tecate's favourite reference sources. John Kelleher of Investopedia is a bitcoin evangelist but the following reflection of his is right on the money so far as I am concerned.
John Kelleher of Investopedia said:
One of the biggest issues is Bitcoin's status as a store of value. Bitcoin's utility as a store of value is dependent on its utility as a medium of exchange. We base this in turn on the assumption that for something to be used as a store of value it needs to have some intrinsic value, and if Bitcoin does not achieve success as a medium of exchange, it will have no practical utility and thus no intrinsic value and won't be appealing as a store of value.
I note your requirement for a working currency - which is essentially short term price stability. Bitcoin does not aspire to that role, which must be the preserve of centralised FIAT and is economy specific - thus dollars do not serve Brits well as a currency. When Kelleher talks about bitcoin being a medium of exchange I think he essentially means a medium for exchanging FIAT but without the perceived drawbacks of exchanging FIAT directly, which seem to revolve around its transparency or what the cultists call its censorship.
 
Thanks to @WolfeTone and @Duke of Marmalade for your replies.
I understand the aspiration for bitcoin to become a recognised currency, to sit alongside fiat currencies (and presumably other crypocurrencies?). If and when it does achieve that status, however, I don't see why anyone would want to 'invest' in it. To me, it's akin to stuffing jam jars and shoe boxes filled with €2 coins into every cupboard and cubbyhole in the house. It makes no sense. Far better to invest in something real that will generate profits and pay a dividend every year. For much the same reason, I don't see any value in gold as an investment. In gold's case, however, I do see the logic in putting some aside in case Armageddon happens and we have to revert to stone age society. In that case, having some gold to melt down and use to pay for necessary provisions makes some sense.
 
In that case, having some gold to melt down and use to pay for necessary provisions makes some sense.

I think perhaps you are missing a fundamental trait of bitcoin.
In a digital, internet age, there is no need for cumbersome tasks of holding gold and melting it down when instead you could trade bitcoin.
 
In a digital, internet age, there is no need for cumbersome tasks of holding gold and melting it down
I was thinking of Armageddon. If society as we know it collapses, anything depending on the internet will have no value. Gold will.
 
I was thinking of Armageddon. If society as we know it collapses, anything depending on the internet will have no value. Gold will.

Well, if we go by the literal meaning of 'Armageddon' then gold will have no value either.
If we are talking about societal and economic collapses, as is frequent throughout history, I'm not sure why it is considered that the Internet will necessarily collapse with also.
 
I've just finished a book by Robert Harris called "The Second Sleep" . If you read that, you'll know what I mean about the possibility of there being no internet in future.
Anyway, my comment about gold being of value in an Armageddon scenario was just incidental. My main point is that, if bitcoin ever gets to being a widely accepted currency, one that holds its value reasonably well over time, neither inflating or deflating, then there's no point in hoarding it.
 
My main point is that, if bitcoin ever gets to being a widely accepted currency, one that holds its value reasonably well over time, neither inflating or deflating, then there's no point in hoarding it.

Well yes, of course. But it is susceptible to inflation and deflation.
If you were minded to think that it could inflate against the euro, or dollar, why wouldn't you hoard it?
 
Figures from the MSO show that over 98% of bitcoin trades are speculative. This is surely unique.
The makey-upey statistic? I wouldn't say it's unique per se Dukey but it certainly has your stamp on it. :)

Every asset has to some degree a speculative aspect e.g. Gold, but can an entity sustain a price indefinitely on speculation alone?
Here's a real stat. 10% of gold's use is industrial - leaving a price that in no way reflects that industrial use and 90% use split between speculative interest and store of value use case. It's going to be a difficulty to tease apart speculative trades from more wholesome store of value use. However, here's something of interest for you. Appox. 11 million BTC have not moved in over a year. Seems more indicative of store of value than speculative trading.

For the answer to this we look to one of tecate's favourite reference sources. John Kelleher of Investopedia is a bitcoin evangelist but the following reflection of his is right on the money so far as I am concerned
John Kelleher was introduced to discussions here by his Dukeness. At that point, he was alright in his book and wasn't a bitcoin evangelist. It wasn't until later when Dukey found that John's scriblings didn't support his world view that John fell off Dukey's Crimbo Card List.

....but the following reflection of his is right on the money so far as I am concerned
Indeed it is when you continue to quote it out of context and leave out parts. Kelleher's article in its entirety states that gold is king as regards store of value yet gold cannot be used and is not used as a medium of exchange. Ergo bitcoin doesn't have to establish itself as a medium of exchange first - in order to initially mature as a store of value.

I note your requirement for a working currency - which is essentially short term price stability. Bitcoin does not aspire to that role
It certainly does aspire to that role. Over the course of its eleven years, bitcoin volatility https://en.longhash.com/news/data-shows-bitcoins-price-volatility-has-been-declining-over-its-10-year-history (has been reducing year on year). Granted it has a ways to go - and that process is going to take many more years - but it will get there. It's logical that as its market capitalisation expands and as it matures as an asset, price volatility will drop.

which must be the preserve of centralised FIAT and is economy specific
I disagree.
When Kelleher talks about bitcoin being a medium of exchange I think he essentially means a medium for exchanging FIAT but without the perceived drawbacks of exchanging FIAT directly, which seem to revolve around its transparency or what the cultists call its censorship.
Please point out where he states that (because he says no such thing).
A currency is censorship resistant if nobody can prevent you from exchanging it and nobody can confiscate it.

I understand the aspiration for bitcoin to become a recognised currency, to sit alongside fiat currencies (and presumably other crypocurrencies?). If and when it does achieve that status, however, I don't see why anyone would want to 'invest' in it.
.
So, bitcoin is an immature asset - it's coming of age right now. With that, there is volatility and there is price discovery. It's a fixed cap currency and naturally as it's adopted, demand will drive price upwards. So right now there is a unique opportunity to get a decent return on investment.

American billionaire hedge fund manager Paul Tudor Jones came out earlier this year and stated that he was taking a position in bitcoin as it represented a good hedge against fiat currency and the potential for 'a great monetary inflation'. You can find his letter to investors . In it, he says that bitcoin reminds him of gold in the 1970s when the first gold futures/derivatives products hit the market. Gold was highly volatile during that decade (like bitcoin is today) and the monetary metal increased in value some 2,300% over the course of the decade. Now it's a settled asset and not as interesting - albeit that it still acts as a hedge.
His point is that bitcoin is where gold was in the 70s. Once it matures as an asset and possibly becomes a recognised means of exchange, it's unlikely to be volatile and it's unlikely to represent an investment in which you would expect to see major gains. Like gold, it will still be a hedge against the traditional markets and fiat currency. Like gold, it can be expected to hold its value - rather than have value eroded through inflation. It's at that point I'm in agreement with you - it's not all that interesting as an investment - although useful to still keep a percentage of your portfolio in it (in the same way as people do with gold)....as a hedge. However, it also outdoes gold at that point too - as it's portable, easier to self custody, divisible and digital (meaning that it can be transacted easily from party A to party B with ease - regardless of where they are in the world). It's also easily verifiable (note the 83 tonnes of fake/counterfeit gold that was discovered in China a few weeks ago) and peer to peer censorship resistant money that can't be confiscated.

In gold's case, however, I do see the logic in putting some aside in case Armageddon happens and we have to revert to stone age society. In that case, having some gold to melt down and use to pay for necessary provisions makes some sense.
In monetary or economic collapse, I believe both gold and bitcoin serve a purpose. At an 'armageddon' level where society has completely fallen apart - I think guns are going to be far more useful to people in that situation than either gold/bitcoin.
I was thinking of Armageddon. If society as we know it collapses, anything depending on the internet will have no value. Gold will.
Bitcoin doesn't depend on the internet. If the internet vanishes tomorrow, anyone can still transact bitcoin via satellite. If one person in a community has access to either a genny or a few solar panels and a sat receiver, then bitcoin can be transacted. Bitcoin can also be transacted by short wave radio, and by sms if there was still a mobile network running or someone managed to get one working. We're a few years away from it, in the future we'll have mesh networks - which are peer to peer networks rather than centralised networks. Bitcoin can be transacted via mesh networks also.
 
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What's the value in hoarding my wealth, irrespective of whether it's in bitcoins, in gold, or in jam jars full of fiat currency? I would much prefer to invest in businesses that can be expected to hold their value in real terms over time as well as delivering a regular income. If I'm more risk-averse, I will lend it on terms that I expect will reward me for forgoing consumption. There is no reward, nor should there be a reward, for hoarding just for the sake of hoarding. That is true, irrespective of whether the savings are hoarded in fiat currency, in bitcoin or in gold.
 
What's the value in hoarding my wealth, irrespective of whether it's in bitcoins, in gold, or in jam jars full of fiat currency?
Your bitcoin and gold will retain their value. Your fiat on the other hand will be stealthily eroded away by inflation and currency debasement.
I would much prefer to invest in businesses that can be expected to hold their value in real terms over time as well as delivering a regular income. If I'm more risk-averse, I will lend it on terms that I expect will reward me for forgoing consumption. There is no reward, nor should there be a reward, for hoarding just for the sake of hoarding. That is true, irrespective of whether the savings are hoarded in fiat currency, in bitcoin or in gold.
So let me understand this correctly Colm. When gold increased 2,300% over the course of the 1970s, there would have been no value in holding it? And as a follow up, what do you think the folks that contribute to the $9 trillion market cap of gold are playing at exactly?
 
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@WolfeTone @tecate
You are both being disingenuous, which I find disconcerting. I like honest discussions, where all participants want to uncover the truth. That was my objective when joining this discussion.
For example:
When gold increased 2,300% over the course of the 1970s, there would have been no value in holding it?
I checked gold prices since the 1970's. The price was artificially pegged to the dollar until August 15 1971. Naturally, the uncoupling had a massive impact on the price, as I'm sure you know well.
From looking at some charts, I see that the price peaked at around $2,000 an ounce at end 1979. It then fell to around $1,000 by the mid-1980's. It is now back close to $2,000 an ounce. If I had put my dollars into a savings account in 1985, earning 4% a year (which, incidentally, is much less than I would have got if I had put my money in the stock market), my initial deposit of $1,000 would be now worth around $4,000, thanks to compound interest. That paints a very different picture, and a far truer one, I submit, than the one you're trying to paint. I'm sure you know that too.
@WolfeTone , you quoted one sentence from my post, omitting the next one, which was integral to my argument. Was the omission deliberate? Here is what I actually wrote (with the second sentence in bold this time round):
There is no reward, nor should there be a reward, for hoarding just for the sake of hoarding. That is true, irrespective of whether the savings are hoarded in fiat currency, in bitcoin or in gold.
I don't believe in hoarding money, period. To repeat, it doesn't matter in what currency it's hoarded. I prefer to put it to work, earning interest, dividends or capital growth.
 
John Kelleher was introduced to discussions here by his Dukeness.
Yes, I accept the clarification.
At that point, he was alright in his book and wasn't a bitcoin evangelist. It wasn't until later when Dukey found that John's scriblings didn't support his world view that John fell off Dukey's Crimbo Card List.
Incorrect. I had read his whole Investopedia piece. It was the fact that he was such an evangelist, pure tecate, that impressed me so much with that key paragraph. Which I summarise as "bitcoin will not make it as a long term store of value if it does not make it as a medium of exchange". This was an ideal opportunity for me to "quote scripture". The following doesn't quite tell me where you stand on this key point.
Indeed it is when you continue to quote it out of context and leave out parts. Kelleher's article in its entirety states that gold is king as regards store of value yet gold cannot be used and is not used as a medium of exchange. Ergo bitcoin doesn't have to establish itself as a medium of exchange first - in order to initially mature as a store of value.
"first", "initially"? Can you answer yes or no do you agree with the above JK's key point? It does not need contextualising. It does not state that in general terms being a store of value is predicated on being a medium of exchange. Gold, precious stones, jewellery in general, fine art, real estate etc. are all counter examples. But JK is stating in no uncertain terms that the conditionality does apply to bitcoin. I 100% agree with him and for what its worth the greatest evangelist of them all, Satoshi, made this clear in his/her/their Gospel (aka White Paper).

I disagree.
Please point out where he states that (because he says no such thing).
I'm speculating. Does JK mean my making it as a "medium of exchange" that a critical mass of folk directly price and negotiate their goods and services in bitcoin? For example will employers be offering bitcoin salaries to attract employees? Or does he mean that folk will still negotiate and price in their fiat currency but use bitcoin as the medium of exchange for consummating deals? Which do you think he means? Which version do you think bitcoin will attain?

.
 
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