But where is the 'proof' that it is life? What is your definition of life?
As an aside to where life begins and whether or not abortion is morally wrong, people who believe it is wrong and want it outlawed force the consequences of their own moral code upon others. I believe in choice. This does not force any of my own beliefs on others, if someone wants to have an abortion I believe that whatever their choice is, is the morally correct decision. So if they do it or not they are not wrong in my eyes. Nor does my belief system force consequences upon people who have a different set of beliefs to me. Which is the more compassionate way to behave? Force your beliefs on others or allow people to make their own decisions without judgement?
But those of us who don't agree with abortion would say you are forcing your choice onto a very vulnerable little life. That is genuinely what we believe, its not about making high handed judgments, its about feeling very sad and concerned that a little baby is having its life deliberately ended.
So if a woman is two days away from term she should be allowed to have an abortion? You have a very absolutist view on this matter.Regardless of when life begins, conception or later in pregnancy, I dont think that anyone should be expected to make use of their bodies to carry a pregnancy to term if they dont want to.
So if a woman is two days away from term she should be allowed to have an abortion? You have a very absolutist view on this matter.
But if it's not a live 'till birth then she should be allowed to insist on an abortion at any time before that, even if the "baby" is capable of independent life. I am just pointing out the flaw in taking an absolutist position when two basic rights are in conflict.In reality that is an extremely unlikely situation to arise. 2 days short of term a baby would be likely to survive out of the womb without major medical intervention. So that doesnt really hold with the point I am making. A woman doesnt need to use her own body to ensure the survival of a baby 2 days short of term, if doctors remove the baby it will live anyway.
From a purely scientific/logical point of view I'd say life begins at conception as from that point on there is really no clear way of distinguishing life at different stages e.g. if you say life begins at 6 weeks what is the difference in the foetus at 5 weeks 6 days and one day later? With conception there is a clear difference between the individual gametes (sperm/egg) and a fertilised embyro.
The clear point for me is when the brain stem forms, which I think from memory is around 7 weeks. I don't think there can be any argument that a foetus without a brain is a life. After that it gets fuzzy.
The clear point for me is when the brain stem forms, which I think from memory is around 7 weeks. I don't think there can be any argument that a foetus without a brain is a life. After that it gets fuzzy.
At 21-25 days the heart is beating. By 30 days it has a brain.
Because it is too difficult? Probably why Flax left as well. You should have read his/hers posts if you didn't like my tone, although as you are in agreement, I guess that would be ok.
*Its not very clear, no. If you are saying that life begins at the first moment that the egg is fertilised, that leaves you on a very sticky wicket, as it would mean being against many common forms of contraception. As would the removal of an ectopic pregnancy. Fair enough if that is your opinion, but you may want to elucidate it a little better if it is.
I appreciate your openness. For my part I feel strongly pro-life and strongly pro-choice cannot reconcile the two...The difference between my pro-choice and your (if you are) pro-life stance, is that I don't believe I have the right to be ok with it or not, thats not the point. It's not my choice to make for others. It's not my opinion on that really matters. I believe that the only person who can make that decision is the woman involved.
If you are asking do I think it should be legal for abortion up to term, then I have to say (with difficulty) yes. It may go against my own feelings on the matter, but I don't think my feelings are what should dictate the choices of others. I don't honestly think it would be a choice that many would take, and I don't think that many a doctor would assist in such a choice, added to which I think it would be a rather unpopular law, so I think it a moot point.
I think that it is an issue for private morality, not public opinion and legislation. (Which also answers Caveats question on the legislation)
Personally, I think that a cutoff at the point where the life of the foetus is viable on its own is a fair stance, so about 22 weeks. I think that it should be much easier to access early abortion services, and the morning after pill, so that late term abortions are a rarity (which they are already, but more so). I think the law in the UK is pretty fair. But like I said, it's not my choice to make for others. I'm pro-choice, not pro-abortion, and I am not being argumentative when I say that I truly don't understand why people think it is up to them to make moral and ethical decisions of such a personal nature for others.
The difference between my pro-choice and your (if you are) pro-life stance, is that I don't believe I have the right to be ok with it or not, thats not the point. It's not my choice to make for others. It's not my opinion on that really matters. I believe that the only person who can make that decision is the woman involved.
If you are asking do I think it should be legal for abortion up to term, then I have to say (with difficulty) yes. It may go against my own feelings on the matter, but I don't think my feelings are what should dictate the choices of others. I don't honestly think it would be a choice that many would take, and I don't think that many a doctor would assist in such a choice, added to which I think it would be a rather unpopular law, so I think it a moot point.
I think that it is an issue for private morality, not public opinion and legislation. (Which also answers Caveats question on the legislation)
Personally, I think that a cutoff at the point where the life of the foetus is viable on its own is a fair stance, so about 22 weeks. I think that it should be much easier to access early abortion services, and the morning after pill, so that late term abortions are a rarity (which they are already, but more so). I think the law in the UK is pretty fair. But like I said, it's not my choice to make for others. I'm pro-choice, not pro-abortion, and I am not being argumentative when I say that I truly don't understand why people think it is up to them to make moral and ethical decisions of such a personal nature for others.
Again, foetus is the term for the unborn baby from eight week until birth. Would you agree with partial birth abortion so? Where a developing child (20 - 24 weeks) is extracted from the womb, feet first, to the neck, an implement is then inserted to suck out the contents of its skull before the skull is crushed and the body is removed intactAbortion is not killing a baby. It is terminating a foetus. A foetus is a potential life. You say that makes no difference if the foetus is inside the woman or outside. It makes a huge difference. One is not breathing. Breathing is pretty high on the list for things that are considered to be alive. Inside= not technically alive. Outside= alive. Different.
Indeed. Because it's small or hard to differentiate it's not worthy. Good argumentThe whole thing is a clump of cells that looks like a peanut.
Wow; restriction of abortion = rapeTo my mind forcing a woman to use her body to do something she doesnt want to do is no different than raping her. . . People have to be allowed to control what happens to their own bodies.
Here's some 'linguistic semantics'; all pregnancies are ultimately terminated, most with a wondrous new babyNo matter what kind of 'linguistic semantics' you employ, termination of a pregnancy is termination of a pregnancy no matter what the reason.
I'm not on trial here . .MichealM, instead of picking apart the posts of others, could you try giving more than the most basic opinion of your own? And read the rest of the posts that have already answered several of you points?
. . but I'm happy to field your specific questions:Could you answer some of my questions please?
1) When does life begin?
2) What is your moral stance on forms of contraception that involve the prevention of implantation? And the removal of an ectopic pregnancy?
3) What specifically is it about the human aspect of life that makes it more unethical to abort a human foetus as opposed to euthanising an animal?
4) Is the foetus distinctly human from the start, or does it acquire it's entitlement to personhood and human rights at some stage during the pregnancy?
5) If the majority of people in the state want abortion to be made legal, do you think it should be?
Interested in?I am genuinely in pro-life argument answers to these questions, and would appreciate answers from that viewpoint.
MichealM, instead of picking apart the posts of others, could you try giving more than the most basic opinion of your own? And read the rest of the posts that have already answered several of you points?
Could you answer some of my questions please?
1) When does life begin?
2) What is your moral stance on forms of contraception that involve the prevention of implantation? And the removal of an ectopic pregnancy?
3) What specifically is it about the human aspect of life that makes it more unethical to abort a human foetus as opposed to euthanising an animal?
4) Is the foetus distinctly human from the start, or does it acquire it's entitlement to personhood and human rights at some stage during the pregnancy?
5) If the majority of people in the state want abortion to be made legal, do you think it should be?
I am genuinely in pro-life argument answers to these questions, and would appreciate answers from that viewpoint.
2. Opposed to IUD. My understanding is that although both the Contraceptive Pill and Morning After Pill can act as abortifacient they can act to prevent fertilization (on which basis they are licensed in Ireland).
I can't give you a concise definitive answer to that question, which is probably why you pose it but I suspect that if the other animals knew what we do to some of our unborn they'd think we were crazy.And just specifically on question no 3, I was wondering what it is about human life as opposed to other forms of life that make it a higher morality, if you like. I'm not arguing that they are the same thing, and I don't personally believe that.
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