Pregnant girl looking for abortion money

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Hi folks

Does anyone else agree that it might be time now to close this thread given that the original query has been addressed?
 
truthseeker said:
But its life is wholly dependant on medical intervention. In a lot of countries this would effectively mean a dead baby. It still only has 'potential' for life.
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Ah, it's alive. Come on.

There's so much denial going on here.

Abortion is ending a life. We can debate all day whether or not the mother is being selfish or extremely selfish but the fact of the matter is she is ending a life to avoid some issues. And the reality is the issues tend to be something like "I don't want to damage my career" or "I don't want to disrupt college", you know, things I would consider fairly insignificant when compared to killing something!
 

I dont see your point here - do you think the fact that some people hold different opinions to your own means that other people are in denial?

For some it is far more significant to continue with career, college or other things than go through with an unwanted pregnancy.
 
truthseeker said:
I dont see your point here - do you think the fact that some people hold different opinions to your own means that other people are in denial?
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People are trying to claim it is not ending a life. That is either denial or misunderstanding.


truthseeker said:
For some it is far more significant to continue with career, college or other things than go through with an unwanted pregnancy.
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I know, and I think it is wrong to put things like college and career ahead of a life. Let's be clear - the woman is choosing to end a life for these things.

I cannot understand why so many people support that kind of primitive, brutal mentality. Abortion is not progress - it is quite the opposite.
 
Flax said:
People are trying to claim it is not ending a life. That is either denial or misunderstanding.
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I dont think a fetus is a life - I think it is the potential for a life.

Flax said:
I know, and I think it is wrong to put things like college and career ahead of a life. And by that I mean you will end a life for these things. I cannot understand why so many people support that kind of primitive, unkind mentality.
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You are entitled to that opinion.

People who agree with abortion dont force the consequences of their opinions on others. People who are against it do. I think thats wrong. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion and choice.
 
truthseeker said:
I dont think a fetus is a life - I think it is the potential for a life.
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Do you think the fetus wants to die?

Or can it not die because it isn't alive?

If it isn't alive, what is it? Sort of alive?

What is sort of alive?


truthseeker said:
People who agree with abortion dont force the consequences of their opinions on others. People who are against it do. I think thats wrong. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion and choice.
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I don't force anyone to do anything. As stated, I have friends who have had abortions - that's their business. However I don't believe we should lie to ourselves about the reality of abortion. It is killing a life. It is selfish. If you want to go ahead and do it, fine, but what you are doing is wrong and selfish.
 
Flax said:
Do you think the fetus wants to die?
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I dont think a fetus has any kind of 'wants' in the sense you mean. It is a collection of cells that is wholly dependant on the body of the woman it is in order to progress to being a life.


I dont mean you personally Flax. I mean that generally speaking if someone had the power to pass a law saying 'abortion is illegal because it is wrong' it means that people who have unwanted pregnancies have to suffer the consequences that they would not have had to suffer if they were allowed to have an abortion.

If someone said 'abortion is legal because a person should have a choice' then no one has to suffer the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy.

I realise that you probably think the second part of that ignores the consequences for the unborn child - but I dont think that the unborn child is a person with rights. I think it is only the potential for a life.

I admire that you have strong beliefs and are willing to debate them. Just because I disagree with you does not mean I believe you are morally wrong, it just means I have a different set of views on it to you.
I dont believe I am right and thats the end of that. Just in my perfect world women would have the choice.
 
ubiquitous said:
Hi folks

Does anyone else agree that it might be time now to close this thread given that the original query has been addressed?
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I suggested this about sixty posts ago but the reaction wasn't too good. I'll have to insist they write 100 lines each "I shall not argue about abortion in public"
 
Just wondering if anyone has actually seen what a 6 week old foetus is like?

It has a brain with brain waves.
It has eyes with eye lids.
It has ears.
It has fingers with fingerprints.
It has a beating heart.

Is this not life?
 
cole said:
It has a brain with brain waves.
It has eyes with eye lids.
It has ears.
It has fingers with fingerprints.
It has a beating heart.
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But not as we know them. The whole thing is a clump of cells that looks like a peanut.
 
I was considering the foetus in its totality ie with a brain, heart, eyes, fingers etc.

I don't subscribe to the notion that a foetus must be capable of existing on it's own before the concept of life is recognised. I'm not sure where this concept arose. We regularly see people (foetuses, babies, adults) kept alive on life support machines who would be unable to live without the machine.
 
From a purely scientific/logical point of view I'd say life begins at conception as from that point on there is really no clear way of distinguishing life at different stages e.g. if you say life begins at 6 weeks what is the difference in the foetus at 5 weeks 6 days and one day later? With conception there is a clear difference between the individual gametes (sperm/egg) and a fertilised embyro.
 
cole said:
Just wondering if anyone has actually seen what a 6 week old foetus is like?

It has a brain with brain waves.
It has eyes with eye lids.
It has ears.
It has fingers with fingerprints.
It has a beating heart.

Is this not life?
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Apparently there is no such thing as facts, just opinions. So even if you prove it is life, it's still just your opinion.

I find it interesting that no one is able to answer any of my previous questions.

I'll try one of them again:

If a baby is born premature at 20 weeks and survives, is it alive or dead? For a second please don't say "it's a matter of opinion" because the baby is either alive or dead: in this case, it's alive. So if a baby is alive when it is born prematurely at 20 weeks, how is it not alive when it is 20 weeks old but still in the womb?

I think a lot of people want to define life as only existing when a baby is born, and think anything else is just an opinion. I'm sorry, but as a scientist I can tell you there are opinions and there are facts. The fact of the matter is a baby in a womb is alive. Seriously, some things are not "opinions" - they are facts.

Once you can understand that an unborn child is alive, it changes everything. It saddens me so many people are not able to grasp these basic concepts. It's literally a life and death situation and ignorance seems to be winning.
 
Firstly I do not believe abortion should ever be a substitute for contraception. For what its worth, my personal but idealistic opinion is whereas an abortion may or not be regretted, it is in rare circumstances that people look at their sons and daughters and wish they had never been born.

When a woman is making the very difficult decision as to whether or not to keep an unplanned baby, it can often mean more than just deciding if she wants the child in her life. Apart from some of the points raised such as lack of emotional or financial support, if the child is conceived in poor circumstances, having the child often means the mother still has to maintain a relationship (however bad it is) with the child's father who may demand his rights. And many women will do this, even outside of a court hearing, for the sake of giving the child an opportunity to know its dad.

 I am aware this also works in reverse but for the most part (be it because of the laws of this land or otherwise) the mother is the primary carer and I'm making my point based on this.

I am pro choice and I believe it is simplistic to read comments about how a woman could carry a child for nine months and unemotionally give it up for adoption or forget who the father is and keep the child. The woman carries the child, the woman goes through pregnancy and the woman goes through labour. Two people had sex. One person is left literally holding the baby. It is her body and her psychological well being and therefore it is ultimately her decision.


 

Does this mean that practicioners of IVF, where sperm and eggs are brought together outside of the human body and only the most viable embryos are implanted into the womb and the rest discarded, are murdering children when they dispose of the sperm/egg combinations that are deemed less viable?
 
Flax said:
Apparently there is no such thing as facts, just opinions. So even if you prove it is life, it's still just your opinion.
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But where is the 'proof' that it is life? What is your definition of life?


A baby born at 20 weeks has the capacity to survive only with massive medical intervention, remove the breathing apparatus and it is in fact dead. People who are clinically brain dead can be kept 'alive' with the assistance of medical apparatus, this does not mean they are 'alive' - they are organic matter that is being kept 'alive' artificially.


I find it difficult to believe any scientist would deal in such absolutes. A baby inside the womb is only an extension of the carrier, the woman whose womb it is in. Taken as an entire system the cells that constitute the baby in the womb can be considered to be 'alive' - as long as they are part of the womans body. Alone there is no life until the feotus has progressed to a point at which it can independantly live outside of the womans body. It is only a fact that there is potential to progress to a life.

Flax said:
Once you can understand that an unborn child is alive, it changes everything. It saddens me so many people are not able to grasp these basic concepts. It's literally a life and death situation and ignorance seems to be winning.
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It is not a matter of understanding that an unborn child is alive and it is extremely patronising of you to assume a lack of understanding in the people who hold different opinions to you.
Your arguments are completely circular 'its life, you are wrong, you do not understand' - in the face of intelligent and well educated posts that differ in opinion to yours. Repeating the same opinion over and over again and believing that those who do not think as you do are ignorant does not make you right and all others wrong - that type of propaganda is known as religion.

As an aside to where life begins and whether or not abortion is morally wrong, people who believe it is wrong and want it outlawed force the consequences of their own moral code upon others. I believe in choice. This does not force any of my own beliefs on others, if someone wants to have an abortion I believe that whatever their choice is, is the morally correct decision. So if they do it or not they are not wrong in my eyes. Nor does my belief system force consequences upon people who have a different set of beliefs to me. Which is the more compassionate way to behave? Force your beliefs on others or allow people to make their own decisions without judgement?
 
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