Poppies/How to commemorate war dead?

[rabbit]

And please let's not forget that if Hitler had won WWII, we would be living in a very different world right now...

Well said. We should be grateful to the millions of people, including the 50,000 Irish people from south of the border who volunteered and served in British forces in WW2 , who fought Nazism. Some brave Irish people also made the ultimate sacrifice in the far east. Had the Axis powers won it would be a different world we live in.

 

[contemporary]

I have talked to two english people over here who were spit on because they wore a poppy, the mentality of some people...

 

[Seagull]

It's not only the British who wear poppies to commemorate the war dead.

 

[BillK]

My Grandfather was with the Dubs at Gallipoli in the first WW; my Father and my Uncle, both born and bred in Dublin, were in the British Army during WWII.

I always wear a poppy at this time of year.

 

[bogwarrior]

Hiding behind a hedge waiting to ambush, planting bombs and then detonating from a safe distance via remote control and planting bombs in bins in town centres does not constitiute military history, by the way.

Yes, but killing civilians via computer controlled rockets does (not saying the British do this, but this is what happens in war). Yes, the sacrifice of men and women should be acknowledged but not always the cause.

I don't think anyone was defending the provos in this thread.
Not wanting to wear a poppy doesn't make one a militant republican. Having a contrary opinion on certain issues regarding the British Army in Northern Ireland doesn't make one a republican either.

 

[edo]

My Grandfather was with the Dubs at Gallipoli in the first WW; my Father and my Uncle, both born and bred in Dublin, were in the British Army during WWII.

I always wear a poppy at this time of year.

Hear Hear - I've various relatives buried in war cemeteries in Belguim, Normandy and Singapore from both WWI and WWII , both in British Army and the US army.

the poppy commemorates the simple soldier who just followed orders and showed immense and in these days , unimaginable courage and bravery.

The first poppies were sold to help the unemployed soldiers who had returned from world war I and were then sleeping homeless in the Streets of London , many badly physically and mental scarred for life.

All and well here in holier than thou Ireland as we are way too self righteous and moral to get our hands dirty in such things as Fighting for our principles - we'd much rather have a demonstration down the middle of connell street on Saturday - that'll put the fear of God into karadic, mladic and Osama Bin Laden all right - We never had to worry about the Nazi threat , the British kept them at bay and us and our economy alive with Scarce resources they didn't have to spare - all over the principle of partition - not Devalera's finest hour

.

 

[propertyprof]

Yes, but killing civilians via computer controlled rockets does (not saying the British do this, but this is what happens in war). Yes, the sacrifice of men and women should be acknowledged but not always the cause.

I don't think anyone was defending the provos in this thread.
Not wanting to wear a poppy doesn't make one a militant republican. Having a contrary opinion on certain issues regarding the British Army in Northern Ireland doesn't make one a republican either.

I am defending the provos on this thread actually!

If the IRA have to stoop to any tactics then you FORCE, yes force the Britis to 1. Recognise Irish self determination the I support that. I know that my not be a popular view on a happy little middle class forum like this but it is my view and the view of many.

As for poppies - it actually makes my sick to see Irish people wearing them - these are the same people that would lok down their nose at you for wearing a lily.

This is what the poppy commemorates!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_Tans

[broken link removed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Clegg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amritsar_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Iraqi_beating_by_British_soldiers_video

I could go on, and on, and on, and on - and on!!!

Good to see Yorky show his true colour and defend Para 1 and 2 in Derry for murdering childern and shooting protesters in the back!

If you think that the poppy symbolises those honourable mecenaries and hirlings that "fought" for the brits during WW2 (like my uncle) then you have swallowed and line and need to do a reality check and find out what the poppy is really all about AND where the money go also!

 

[propertyprof]

We never had to worry about the Nazi threat , the British kept them at bay and us and our economy alive with Scarce resources they didn't have to spare

.

Oh I forgot the Brits won the war all on their own - my thanks to those jolly good chaps, hurrah!!! - you really are deluded, have you been watching too many movies??

next we will have the classic - "if the britsh hadnt defeated the germans then we would all now be speaking a foriegn language!!"

Only one thing wrong with that statement however, the Brits systemically attempted to destroy our language long before the germans started invading Poland.

more later is this jackeen flag waving continues!

 

[rabbit]

I am defending the provos on this thread actually!

Shame on you. Defending the people who butchered men , women and children. Still, I suppose it takes all types. There are links with the Nazis of course ...Sean Russell of the IRA died on active service on a German u-boat during the war, and Sinn Fein commemorated him with a statue a few years ago. They remain the only party in Europe to have had links with the Nazis. Thank God the hundreds of thousands of Irish people who volunteered and served with British forces over the decades done us proud, and helped guarantee our freedom from the Nazis and their s.f. bedfellows.

P.S. Wikipedia is edited by brainwashed republicans so much time and time again most reasonably intelligent people know it is so far from being independent that is is a farce, and the kind of drivel not even worth looking at.

 

[rabbit]

Oh I forgot the Brits won the war all on their own

Nobody claimed that. People from many dozens of countries around the world proudly fought with UK forces, which stood up to Hitler in 1939. We all know the part Russia and the US, as well as many other countries, played in fighting the axis powers. I know a brave Irishman who served in the British merchant navy bringing vital war supplies to Russia, in the arctic convoys, in dreadful and v. dangerous conditions. Our government did not do very much to stand up to threats to world peace like Nazism, Communism or the invasion of Kuwait by the 4th largest army in the world at the time. Its all too easy for people like propertyprof to snipe from the sidelines, having beneffited from sheltering under someone elses umbrella.

 

[Seagull]

If you think that the poppy symbolises those honourable mecenaries and hirlings that "fought" for the brits during WW2 (like my uncle) then you have swallowed and line and need to do a reality check and find out what the poppy is really all about AND where the money go also!

So all the Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Canadians, Indians, Burmese, and other nations that were involved in the wars and wear the poppy are mercenaries or hirelings. Bear in mind that there are now a significant number of immigrants in this country who respect the poppy, and are not British.

As has already been pointed out, Wikipedia is open to editing by anyone, and as such is not to be trusted when it comes to emotive issues.

 

[bogwarrior]

the poppy commemorates the simple soldier who just followed orders and showed immense and in these days , unimaginable courage and bravery.

Yes, as a matter of interest though, do the Germans commemorate their war fallen of both wars? i'd imagine a lot of germans were just following orders too. Is it possible to honour the rank and file WW2 German soldier while discounting the evil ideology they fought for?
Koizumi in Japan stirred up a lot of controversy went he went to the Yaskuni (spelling?) shrine to honour the Japanese dead. I believe there are convicted war criminals buried there, but it also commerates the ordinary soldiers. Is their (personal) sacrifice worth less than a US or British casualty of war?

All and well here in holier than thou Ireland as we are way too self righteous and moral to get our hands dirty in such things as Fighting for our principles - we'd much rather have a demonstration down the middle of connell street on Saturday - that'll put the fear of God into karadic, mladic and Osama Bin Laden all right

the rest of the world doesn't seem to be too anxious to do anything about Karadic and Mladic either. What should we do, send our lads into the Baklans to flush them out?
We may not be an active member of the 'Coalition of the Willing' but we do proivide facilities in Shannon to assist the American government in their war.
We also have over 1,000 soldiers deployed in the former Yugoslavia.

We never had to worry about the Nazi threat , the British kept them at bay and us and our economy alive with Scarce resources they didn't have to spare - all over the principle of partition - not Devalera's finest hour.

I agree.

 

[Guest127]

propertyprof: dont know what kind of independent republic you aspire to. hopefully not one that supports the omagh bombing but it sounds awfully like it.

 

[propertyprof]

propertyprof: dont know what kind of independent republic you aspire to. hopefully not one that supports the omagh bombing but it sounds awfully like it.

What an idiotic thing to say, I would never support the intentional mass murder of innocent civilians - however, I am sure if "it was the Brits wot done it" then Yorky would say that warnings were given and the police lead the civilians into the area were the bomb was, especially as he seems happy that the paras are absolved of any blame for Bloody Sunday as he state that they did not shoot first - you are a disgrace and if I met you face to face sir I would certainly not be happy to met you - is your name Widgery by any chance?. I am sure the supporters of the British army on this forum would rejoice in the mass murder of the citizens of Dresden! now there is what your proud saviour of civilisation did during WW2.

How easily eaten bread is soon forgotten! Rabbit you are a disgrace and it is people like you who were the ones who spat on the heroes on 1916 - but shhhhh! its not OK to remember those brave soldiers who actually did selflessly sacrificed their lives (no need for conscription there!) because they are Irish - maybe their uniforms wernt smart enough for you eh??.

I am actually going to stop now because my face is red with rage - you disgust me you brainwashed anglophiles!

 

[edo]

What an idiotic thing to say, I would never support the intentional mass murder of innocent civilians - however, I am sure if "it was the Brits wot done it" then Yorky would say that warnings were given and the police lead the civilians into the area were the bomb was, especially as he seems happy that the paras are absolved of any blame for Bloody Sunday as he state that they did not shoot first - you are a disgrace and if I met you face to face sir I would certainly not be happy to met you - is your name Widgery by any chance?. I am sure the supporters of the British army on this forum would rejoice in the mass murder of the citizens of Dresden! now there is what your proud saviour of civilisation did during WW2.

How easily eaten bread is soon forgotten! Rabbit you are a disgrace and it is people like you who were the ones who spat on the heroes on 1916 - but shhhhh! its not OK to remember those brave soldiers who actually did selflessly sacrificed their lives (no need for conscription there!) because they are Irish - maybe their uniforms wernt smart enough for you eh??.

I am actually going to stop now because my face is red with rage - you disgust me you brainwashed anglophiles!

Absolutely Classic Property prof !- If you can't come back with some degree of reasoned debate - then a good old tunnel visioned rant will have to do instead.

Nobody on this thread brought up 1916 before and I dare say nobody here would have questioned the bravery of those who participated in it. I think you are completely missing the whole point of the thread here - That one side of our history until recently was completely airbrushed away and I would say it affects nearly every family in the country - 2 of my great grand uncles died on the Western Front in 1915-1916 and other brother , my great grandfather spent 1 and 1/2 years there , came home and joined the IRA and was arrested and sent to Frongoch in Wales for 2 years after 1916 for being part of the 1916 rising. Im sure many other posters can tell in a similar story , but for so long it was the heroes of 1916 and the war of independence who were lionised ,yet those who went to WWI , volunteered to win home-rule for Ireland were written out of the story- but as Hitler famously said - its the victors who write the history.

But if you ever think there will ever be a more than a snowballs chance in hell of a United Ireland - then there will have to be recognition that there is more than one side to every story and more than one tradition on this Island and that being Irish is far more than being a knee-jerk anglophobe - something the more extreme elements of Irish Nationalism would be well advised to pay more than lip service to if they have aspirations to a Unified Ireland this side of next millennium.

 

[BillK]

July/August 1915 Suvla Bay

5th & 6th Battalions Royal Iniskilling Fusiliers
5th & 6th Battalions Royal Irish Fusiliers
6th & 7th Battalion Royal Dublin Fusiliers
7th Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers

A battalion of infantry at that time consisted of approximately 1000 officers and men, so approximately 7000 Irishmen were fighting on the Gallipoli Peninsula. Many of these men lost their lives and it is for them and their successors during WWII that I and many like me wear a poppy in remembrance at this time of year.

 

[Marion]

I've got uncles who participated in both wars. One who died during WW1. He and many other UCD students joined up when they finished college. He died in the war. I have another uncle who was a member or the medical corps in WW2 - he survived the war.

Btw, I also have a gran aunt who was shot and killed by the Black and Tans because she opened a door of her business premises for a neighbouring child during curfew.

Marion

 

[Guest127]

propertyprof:

I am defending the provos on this thread actually!

If the IRA have to stoop to any tactics then ...........


this is the bit I was referring to: sort of absolves the omagh bombing by stating that the IRA had to stoop to this tactic
this is my final post on this thread.

 

[propertyprof]

right I am going to tone it down a little cos I am just banging my head against a brick wall and just say this - rightly or wrongly remember you family members who died fighting for the British army in WW1 and WW2 and I will say is that you are wearing the wrong symbol for that purpose and the poppy commemorates all British solider in all British wars including those that were sent ot Ireland to attempt to crush the Irish.

 

[rabbit]

How easily eaten bread is soon forgotten! Rabbit you are a disgrace

No I am not a disgrace, far from it. You are correct that eaten bread is soon forgotten...you do not remember and honour the millions of brave people who stood up to Germany in two world wars, to the invading Japanese of WW2, to the communist threat in the cold war, and numerous other wars. But for them you would not enjoy life as you do today.

People like you, and terrorists elected by nobody who maimed and killed, and people like the IRA man Sean Russell who collaborated with the Nazis, may think people like me are a disgrace, but so be it. Time has proved us right.