Pope's letter on child sex abuse and cover up

In Cork we get envelopes at Christmas and Easter looking for "offerings." (Don't they in other counties?) People put money, usually quite a bit, into the envelope and it's collected by the local lay person who delivered it first day. In Co. Cork, they have "stations." A station is when mass is said in a house in a particular townland (twice a year in every townland) and every household makes a contribution to the priest. Station dues were to be what the priest survived on, along with payments for signing mass cards, saying masses for dead people, weddings, funerals, baptisms, etc. Sunday church collections were for parish funds.... upkeep of the church building, etc.
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Ah OK, think my Parents get something similar. Never seen one myself though, but I think I have technically moved parish 3 years ago. Niot that I'd contribute.

I must say though, I feel bad for the honest priests.
 
As a practising Catholic I have to admit I was a bit disappointed when "Benny" got elected, to me he was not the man to drive through the changes needed in the church. There's a lot of good things in this letter, but overall I do feel it was a missed opportunity

Firstly, the welcome parts, the apology, not just for the abuse but also for the response of the church, the admonishment of the bishops(could perhaps have been stronger though), his stated willingness to meet abuse victims and his acceptance that some men were allowed to become priests who should never have been left.
I'm reminded of the joke in Father Ted when Ted is explaining to someone how in Irish families the intelligent son would become a doctor, the eejit son would become a priest. Dougal pipes up "Ted, you've a brother a doctor, dont you?" Whether they were eejits, "mothers vocations" or whatever the reason, many of these abusers should and could have been weeded out far earliers.

I would have preferred however to seen more stringent condemnation of the cover ups. I would also have liked him to take more personal responsibility for what happened, he's the boss-man and ultimately has to take responsibility for what his staff have done, even if it was not always on his watch. Instead he just seems to blame the priests, bishops and society in general.I also have an issue with blaming "secularisation" for what happened. That's just a load of codswallop.

He also didn't tackle one of the reasons why I believe abuse happened, namely celibacy. After all, it was never a requirement in the early days of the church and I never really understood why it was brought in at all. My father told me once how after a dance in the 40s and 50s, the parish priest would be cycling around with a torch looking for "courtin" couples. In the plain speak of a country farmer, Dad described him as being like a bull in heat in a field with no cows.

My mother admits that back in the 50s, people did not go to church to worship God, they went to workship the priests. Those days are over and good ridence to them. There is far greater lay involvement these days for example which is great. I perfectly understand why some posters on here would leave the church or stop making donations , but could I also ask that people do not forget the tremendous work done by organisations such as St Vincent de Paul or the recent charity collections for Haiti held in many churches (my own parish raised €54k) and not to turn their back on those.
 
He also didn't tackle one of the core reasons why I believe abuse happened, namely celibacy. After all, it was never a requirement in the early days of the church and I never really understood why it was brought in at all. My father told me once how after a dance in the 40s and 50s, the parish priest would be cycling around with a torch looking for "courtin" couples. In the plain speak of a country farmer, Dad described him as being like a bull in heat in a field with no cows.

Mpsox, I 100% agree with every thing else in your excellent post, but even as an atheist I don't think the prevalence of abuse is as simplistic in its roots as celibacy.

My opinion is that in the same way we've seen abusers in positions with children's sports, education, care etc, it's access to and power over the victims that is the "attraction" to those vocations. I feel it is the same in the church, those who abused, chose that occupation because of the access to vulnerable children rather than the role turned them into abusers.
 
My opinion is that in the same way we've seen abusers in positions with children's sports, education, care etc, it's access to and power over the victims that is the "attraction" to those vocations. I feel it is the same in the church, those who abused, chose that occupation because of the access to vulnerable children rather than the role turned them into abusers.

+1, agree totally.
 
mpsox, i 100% agree with every thing else in your excellent post, but even as an atheist i don't think the prevalence of abuse is as simplistic in its roots as celibacy.

My opinion is that in the same way we've seen abusers in positions with children's sports, education, care etc, it's access to and power over the victims that is the "attraction" to those vocations. I feel it is the same in the church, those who abused, chose that occupation because of the access to vulnerable children rather than the role turned them into abusers.

+1
 
Mpsox, I 100% agree with every thing else in your excellent post, but even as an atheist I don't think the prevalence of abuse is as simplistic in its roots as celibacy.

My opinion is that in the same way we've seen abusers in positions with children's sports, education, care etc, it's access to and power over the victims that is the "attraction" to those vocations. I feel it is the same in the church, those who abused, chose that occupation because of the access to vulnerable children rather than the role turned them into abusers.

I'm not saying it is the reason but I do believe it is one of many reasons. Hans Kung, the theologian, has blamed much of what has happened on the churches "uptight" attititude to sex, which is perhaps a better explanation then just celibacy. Interestingly a German cardinal has also said that celibacy is a reason
 
I'm not saying it is the reason but I do believe it is one of many reasons. Hans Kung, the theologian, has blamed much of what has happened on the churches "uptight" attititude to sex, which is perhaps a better explanation then just celibacy. Interestingly a German cardinal has also said that celibacy is a reason

Sorry, I really don't mean to distract from your post by opening the celibacy debate as I really did agree with everything else you said.

...however..., well I suppose my objection to this apsect is that it holds the church up as a special case. If we had complete liberal views on sex, we'd still have paedophiles. If we had swingers parties orgainsed by the local priest, we'd still have paedophiles.

I think to blame any system (not saying you are) or body and its attitudes to sex in general for the paedophillia to me excuses the act and those who engage in it. It's not the system's fault, it's the paedophiles.

Again though we're going off tangent. There's so much for the Church to be condemned for, but I think the issue of celibacy is a smokescreen and possibley a step to far in some way implying the Church created these individuals.
 
Fintan O'Toole writing in The Observer on Sunday with regard to the Benny letter...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/21/pope-benedict-xvi-catholicism

The cover-up of child sexual abuse by the Catholic church is not about sex and it is not about Catholicism. It is not, as Pope Benedict rightly argued in yesterday's distressingly bland pastoral letter, about priestly celibacy. It is about power.

The urge to prey on children is not confined to the supposedly celibate clergy and exists in all walks of life. We know that it can become systemic in state and voluntary, as well as in religious, institutions. We know that all kinds of organisations – from banks to political movements – can generate a culture of perverted loyalty in which otherwise decent people will collude in crimes "for the greater good".

In none of these respects is the Catholic church unique. What makes it different – and what gives this crisis its depth – is the church's power. It had the authority, indeed the majesty, to compel victims and their families to collude in their own abuse and to keep hideous crimes secret for decades. It is that system of authority that is at the heart of the corruption. And that is why Benedict's pastoral letter, for all its expressions of "shame and remorse", is unable to deal with the central issue. The only adequate response to the crisis is a fundamental questioning of the closed, hierarchical power system of which the pope himself is the apex and the embodiment. It was never remotely likely that Benedict would be able to understand those questions, let alone answer them.

It is this contradiction that explains why the church has been trying, and failing, to put the abuse crisis behind it for well over a decade now. There is something symbolically apt, for example, about the way the grotesque figure of the dead paedophile, Father Brendan Smyth, has returned to threaten the position of the head of the Irish church, Cardinal Sean Brady.

Smyth emerged as a public figure in 1994, when he was convicted in Belfast after almost half a century of child abuse. He almost destroyed the reputation of Brady's predecessor, Cahal Daly. He even contributed to the fall of Albert Reynolds's government in 1994. It makes a kind of grim sense that his horrific career, and the failure of the church to take any real steps to stop him, has re-emerged to haunt another cardinal.

For the shock that Smyth's exposure delivered to Irish Catholicism has not yet been absorbed by the hierarchy. Both in Ireland and worldwide, the institution's all-male leadership refuses to face the fact that its own existence is at the heart of the problem. A closed system of authority in which democracy is a dirty word, secrecy is a virtue and unaccountable individuals combine spiritual prestige and temporal power is a breeding ground for abuse and cover-up.

The universal nature of the church's response to abuse, from Belfast to Brazil and Australia to Austria, tells us the institution itself is the problem. Much of the criticism has focused, understandably, on the actions of individuals such as Brady when he investigated Smyth in 1975 or Benedict (Joseph Ratzinger as he then was) who sent an abuser in his Munich archdiocese for "therapy" in 1980. But the system for dealing with these crimes was the same everywhere: swear the victims to secrecy; send the abuser to be "cleansed" in a clinic; shift him to another parish (or in extreme cases like Smyth's to another country); and, above all, do not tell the police.

It is not a coincidence that the cover-up worked in the same way throughout the church's vast domain. It was a fully thought-through system with a clear set of goals, defined by last year's devastating Murphy report on the Dublin archdiocese as "the maintenance of secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of the reputation of the church, and the preservation of its assets".

Why did bishops, who were not monsters and who presumably believed themselves to be exemplars of goodness, choose to send child rapists out into parishes rather than bring the institution into disrepute? The brutally truthful answer is: because they could. There is no starker illustration of the corrupting influence of excessive power.

That power was, in Catholic societies or communities, all-encompassing. It included the notion that they themselves and their priests belonged to a special caste, which was not subject to the civil law. This idea is deeply ingrained. Only last week, one of Ireland's leading canon lawyers, Monsignor Maurice Dooley, insisted on RTE radio that priests do not have to report child abuse: "Priests are not auxiliary policemen… they do not have an obligation to go down to the police." On the contrary, he insisted, Brady, when he learned of Smyth's crimes, "was dealing with a particular in camera investigation within the church. It would be a violation of his obligations if he went to the police".

That appalling arrogance was bolstered by an even more sinister knowledge. Bishops and priests knew that, because of their spiritual authority, they could manipulate the victims into feeling guilty. Kindly priests would offer those who disclosed abuse absolution of their sins, as if they were the ones who had stains on their souls. And parents who reported the violation of their children were often fearful lest they themselves be seen to be damaging the church they loved. As a previous archbishop of Dublin, Dermot Ryan, noted in internal case notes: "The parents involved have, for the most part, reacted with what can only be described as incredible charity. In several cases, they were quite apologetic about having to discuss the matter and were as much concerned for the priest's welfare as for their child and other children."

It is that capacity to place yourself above the law and to make those who have been wronged feel "quite apologetic" that is peculiar to the church. These are the factors that explain, not just why the institution put its own interests above those of children, but also why it succeeded for so long. The church is not alone in believing that evil could be tolerated for a "good cause". But it was unique in the democratic world in its ability to get away with doing so in case after case and for decade after decade.

To cut out the source of the corruption, the church would have to attack its own authoritarian culture. Had Benedict done so in his pastoral letter, it would have been the most dramatic moment in the history of Christianity since Paul fell off his horse on the road to Damascus.

Benedict, as Cardinal Ratzinger, was one of the key figures in the Catholic counter-revolution. His career has been all about rolling back the democratic ideal of the church as the "people of God" that emerged from Vatican II and re-establishing hierarchical control. Indeed, in the pastoral letter he slyly suggests that Vatican II itself was responsible for the church's collusion with abusing priests – which, given the existence of precisely the same system long before the council, is patent nonsense.

So, for all the breast-beating in the pastoral letter, there is no acknowledgment of Benedict's own culpability. (If the "credibility and effectiveness" of Irish bishops have been undermined, as he says, by the scandals, what of his own standing as a bishop, as the power behind John Paul II's throne and now as pope?)

There is no explicit endorsement of the new protocols in Ireland demanding that all suspicions be referred to the police. Indeed, the demand that "the child safety norms of the church in Ireland" be "applied fully and impartially in conformity with canon law", and the weasel-worded injunction to "co-operate with the civil authorities in their area of competence", seem to reinforce the notion that canon law matters more than criminal law.

There is no rowing back on the line enunciated by the Vatican's secretary of state, Tarcisio Bertone, last week that "the church still enjoys great confidence on the part of the faithful; it is just that someone is trying to undermine that". That "someone" is, in fact, the church's own leadership and its unshaken commitment to hierarchical power. The faithful have known that for a long time now. The pope, their supposed leader, is still floundering, far, far behind them.
 
Thank you Purple, I'm so far gone I'd believe anything now. Maybe that's the way they think behind closed doors.

Really excellent article by O' Toole.

Could anyone shed light on why the church tolerated paedophiles. They seem to expel priests who sleep with women and have no tolerence of that so why accept paedophiles. Wouldn't it have been easier to just expel the paedophiles? Do children have less rights than adults in the eyes of the Church? What is their thinking?
 
Firstly, the welcome parts, his stated willingness to meet abuse victims

Well one ought to contrast that with how the congegration in Kerry greeted the man who shouted at the Bishop last Sunday. Did the Bishop and congregation welcome him?

How quick the gardai were to step in for this minor transgression and contrast that with the gardai interviewing Brady who had in law committed an offense by not reporting the fact that children had told him about the rapes they had been subjected by a priest.
 
Well one ought to contrast that with how the congegration in Kerry greeted the man who shouted at the Bishop last Sunday. Did the Bishop and congregation welcome him?

How quick the gardai were to step in for this minor transgression and contrast that with the gardai interviewing Brady who had in law committed an offense by not reporting the fact that children had told him about the rapes they had been subjected by a priest.

I can't and won't defend what happened in Kilarney.

Based on the Murphy report, did it actually make much difference if things were reported to the Gardai back in the past? There is a need to actually take a long hard look at how the whole issue of child abuse was handled across the country over the last 50 years, obviously in the church, but also the performance of the Gardai, govt departments, social workers and some charities. Should we not have some sort of "Truth Commision" and get everything out in the open once and for all?
 
I agree Mpsox. I have said above that there is a section of people who are vilifying the RC Church in a sort of deflected guilt and anger instead of acknowledging the broader implications for how Irish society as a whole viewed child abuse in the past.
Just look at the level of physical violence that was not perpetrated against young children in schools and in the home. It wasn’t just tolerated, it was seen as a virtue. “Spare the rod and spoil the child” was the accepted wisdom in this country ‘till recently.

The main culprit in all of this is the Irish state, and by extension the Irish electorate, who willingly outsourced its constitutional duty to care for vulnerable children to people who were neither qualified or psychologically suitable to fulfil the task. The state then didn’t bother to carry out any oversight and when gross abuses were reported to them they didn’t just fail to investigate it, they covered it up.

That doesn’t in any way excuse the RC Church or the Pope from their own culpability in what has happened.
 
>>Again though we're going off tangent. There's so much for the Church to be condemned for, but I think the issue of celibacy is a smokescreen and possibley a step to far in some way implying the Church created these individuals.<<

Well apart from celibacy, I think that to a certain extent the church did create at least some of these individuals. They say that often abusers were abused themselves as children and if you had altar boys/schoolkids/seminarians who were systematically abused and then went on to become priests surely they are more likely than other priests to abuse. I wonder will we ever find out how many abusing priests were themselves abused by a priest, and that is one of the things the Vatican has to look at, whether the institution did indeed create them.

Fintan O'Toole:
>>That appalling arrogance was bolstered by an even more sinister knowledge. Bishops and priests knew that, because of their spiritual authority, they could manipulate the victims into feeling guilty<<

To me this business about blaming the secularisation of society is the same thing - part of an abusive cycle.

>> how Irish society as a whole viewed child abuse in the past. <<

There was probably some sort of hopeless denial going on and a total inability to question the authority of the church. But I agree the question is there, what sort of country were we? But those questions are not just in the past. What sort of country are we now? A society where social workers are short on the ground and cannot cover all the cases, cannot stop children being abused, children in care are not looked after properly, convicted rapists are walking around until they ruin another person's life etc . . .it's not like we have thrown off the shackles of the RC to evolve into a society where we don't allow these things to happen.
 
I thought nothing else could shock me. Did the pope actually say that? What is wrong with these men, every last one of them.
Jayz Bronte you didn't seriously believe that!! Read the link on that article to another article which talks about North Korea's jealosy at that time that the US was attacking Iraq and not it. The Onion seems to be a permanent April Fool and not very witty.
 
Jayz Bronte you didn't seriously believe that!! Read the link on that article to another article which talks about North Korea's jealosy at that time that the US was attacking Iraq and not it. The Onion seems to be a permanent April Fool and not very witty.

I only read a bit of it, there are no beliefs that the catholic hierarchy have that I wouldn't believe right down to murder. If I didn't believe that I wouldn't be able to mentally deal with how they handle the abuse of children. It goes down to the real way they think about the rights of children and women who I absolutely believe they hate, a hatred I cannot understand no matter how I try so there is no belief of theirs that is beyond the pale with me.

To those of you who may wonder, I've never had any real bad experiences being brought up going to a Catholic school. In fact one of the kindest people I ever met was a nun who took care of me like a mother from when I went to school at 4, she made my lunch all the years I was there, and gave me free music lessons and looked out for me every day. I think I was the child she never had and she was a most holy and devout and good person far far removed from the all male hierarchy. It is the abuse of power that the Catholic Church has in Ireland that drives me crazy. That those who profess to speak good and the word of God can do such evil. And that everybody goes along with it and that they still they pay into that institution, it is beyond my understanding. I have no problem with people having religious beliefs or being part of a religion.
 
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