Poor old America!!

  • Thread starter johnjames2010
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Re: Trolling

Owensy is a troller, Owensy is a troller:lol :evil
 
America

I do not know who Owensy is but he / she makes good points. It is typical of piggy to personally attack him. The vast silent majority of people know America is not perfect, but it is a hell of a lot better than Saddams Iraq, or Bin Ladens view of the world.

I do not know why Piggy is so irritable , is not Ramadam over ?
 
trolling

Yeah...owensy makes brilliant points for a 5 year old child.








:rolleyes
 
Maceface is a Troll

Piggy, as a "friendly rival" let me advise you that MF is almost certainly trolling you. He has set out a totally charicature anti-americanism, which you vehemently protest you do not share, and in which she herself almost certainly does not believe. Yet she has exposed the unbalanced way in which you pounce on poor Owensy within minutes and yet you have singularly failed to denounce the lunatic fringe of your "side" as epitomised by MF.
 
Re: America

Sometimes I'm reminded of that Hans Christian Anderson story (I think) of the little elves and the shoemaker. You remember the one, where the elves used to come out at night? Except, in this case it's the trolls who come out at night on AAM.

Piggy, as a "friendly rival" let me advise you that MF is almost certainly trolling you. He has set out a totally charicature anti-americanism, which you vehemently protest you do not share, and in which she herself almost certainly does not believe. Yet she has exposed the unbalanced way in which you pounce on poor Owensy within minutes and yet you have singularly failed to denounce the lunatic fringe of your "side" as epitomised by MF.

Friendly rival? What's that?
How do I know you're the same YD that posted on page one of this thread, or any other post for that matter? I have no proof of that. What I do have is written proof of a lot of rubbish that you've just posted.
Maceface is clearly not a troll. He has, in great detail, laid out his views on what he terms anti-Americanism to be. He has debated the topic reasonably and with a lot of analysis. Whether or not I or anyone else agrees with him is an entirely different matter.
As for owensy's posts, I've challenged him twice now to back up the particular claims he's made or retract them. On both occasions he's declined. Making wild, unsubstantiated remarks in a thread will always, and should always be challenged. I was very careful not to attack anyone.
Your reference to Maceface consistently as 'her' also suggests you're just trolling by the way.

Y'see, here's the thing. It's pretty obvious to everyone who's reading this thread, or any of the other threads on similar topics, that there's one guy, or maybe more who just really, really doesn't like hearing any anti-war commentary. Unfortunately, he or she has nothing of any consequence to add to the debate so instead relies on sad attempts to undermine the debate by calling people Bin Laden supporters, or fans of Saddam or saying you should be ashamed of yourself...or whatever drivel springs to mind.

Trolls are part and parcel of nearly every forum on the internet. I even came across them on sun's Java forum earlier today! They're motivated by many things I suppose. In AAM's case, I think it tends to be a dislike for anything that's anti-war or anti-George Bush.

In your case YD, you have obviously nothing to add to this debate, other than to make some silly comment about Maceface's posts and (if you are the same person) trying to find some flaw in my argument, before slinking off into obscurity again.
If you do have some points to make on this subject then make them. I have every respect for people who can stand up and argue a point, regardless of whether I agree with them or not. It takes intelligence and cop on to actually argue through points on a discussion board. It takes nothing to troll and says an awful lot about the level of that person's intellect and state of mind.
 
Re: Piggy protesteth 2 much

Piggy,

I appreciate your seeing that I am not a troll and I do think that maybe YD is calling me as it is the only way to get people to ignore my points.

YD (or is it Ownsy?), if you think I am trolling, please explain what I have said to give you that impression.

I have a point of view, and I am quite entitled to it!
 
Is MF a troll?

Maceface, in a veritable tirade against America, as well as some bizzarre reference to looking for oil in the Arctic (so what) you also said:
I don't like the way Hollywood takes true stories from the past and makes the heroes out to be American.
Click to expand...
(give us a clue). That post was either written from incredible anti-american bigotry, or was firmly TIC, to try and troll Piggy by exposing his onesided denunciations. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that it was the latter. I apologise profusely if indeed it was the former. I also apologise for suggesting that you may be female which piggy ,and presumably yourself being of like mind, regards as the ultimate slur.
 
Poor old America

Just to clear a few things up.. Piggy and Maceface you both strike me as very intelligent men/women, more than my self even...

But can you honestly say that if your country was hit with an attack like 9/11 would not expect some retaliation?
imagine it family members and friends.

Secondly in what nation and under what government would you rather live. A nation under rule of Saddam or a nation under Bush (who i am no fan).?

What country USA or Iraq have done more for the people of this country and the world.?

By no means are USA perfect far from it but in all honestly how can this anti American feeling stem from this nation, i feel we owe to much to them.

So lads put on your thinking fairly hat and be honest, SADDAM HAD TO GO !
 
Re: Is MF a troll?

Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------
I don't like the way Hollywood takes true stories from the past and makes the heroes out to be American.
------------------------------------------------------------

I would have thought it was obvious what Maceface was referring to.
I love the cinema and most of my favourite films come out of the US. Then again, they do pump out some awful rubbish too.

That post was either written from incredible anti-american bigotry, or was firmly TIC, to try and troll Piggy by exposing his onesided denunciations. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that it was the latter.

So...you gave Maceface the benefit of the doubt that it was the latter...that you thought he was a troll!! How is that giving him the benefit of the doubt? :\

This is pretty poor stuff YD.
 
Re: Poor old America

But can you honestly say that if your country was hit with an attack like 9/11 would not expect some retaliation?
imagine it family members and friends.

Many people hoped that the US might take stock of their foreign policy after 911 and look at the roots causes of the hatred directed at them. They didn't. Regardless of that fact, retaliation after 911 was directed at the Taliban and Al Queda. No one argues that getting rid of them was a good idea. However, the war in Afghanistan has been divisive and has killed thousands of innocent civilians. Many more than were killed in the Twin Towers. That retaliation also has nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq.

Secondly in what nation and under what government would you rather live. A nation under rule of Saddam or a nation under Bush
I'm afriad I don't see the relevance of a question like this to be honest. Naturally I'd rather live in the States than under an oppressive regime like Saddam's. You seem to be confusing criticism of US foreign policy with some belief that we all loved Saddam. We didn't!

What country USA or Iraq have done more for the people of this country and the world.?

The US has obviously done more for the modern world than Iraq has...that's also not up for debate. Their sometimes atrocious foreign policy and propoganda in the case of clear breaches of international law, human rights and human dignity are.

So lads put on your thinking fairly hat and be honest, SADDAM HAD TO GO !
I agree...he did have to go...but the way he's gone has been stupid, ill thought out, illegal and damaging to world peace. Many people just want to point out that, although he's gone, they don't feel or believe that the coalition care all that much that Iraq is free of him.
 
Poor old America

Fair points piggy but the most frustrating things is the way you comment on America's human rights atrocities, like have we not all seen Saddam's torture chambers in his prisons and the tailban treatment of women and men, living under the tailban must over shadow any human rights issue's that America ever committed in fairness....

I agree camp x ray is against all regulations but just consider what Saddam's men done to the Kurds.. Gassed them, his torture of the This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language's up rising etc.. etc.. the shooting of men who played sport under the Afghanistan Flag... i feel the list is endless...

America is far from perfect but in terms of human rights i still think there well behind the lot discussed above.
 
Re: Poor old America

The problem is we're talking about the sole superpower on the planet here.

There are many levels to this debate, the real reason for invading Iraq is one of them. Clear breaches of international law and the Geneva convention are some of the others.

I'm not arguing with you about Saddam or his people. However, it's not a valid argument to just say that US treatment of prisoners wasn't as bad as Saddam's. Bush made that comment when he was hear, much to my amazement.

As I said, that is only a small part of all this. It's too simplistic to just say that Saddam is gone so the world is better.

It's a bit like me saying I don't like the way butter melts on my toast, and because you really like butter you say..."Well, I don't like toast. Butter wouldn't melt if it wasn't on hot bread". That's a light hearted analogy, but it demonstrates that to argue a point you need to look at the point being made first, then bring other issues into it...like the toast!!
 
Re: Poor old America

But can you honestly say that if your country was hit with an attack like 9/11 would not expect some retaliation?
Click to expand...
There is no evidence that Sep 11 has anything to do with Iraq!
Even if it had, isn't this just vigilantism?
If it is illegal for an individual to do this, then why should an entire country be allowed?

Secondly in what nation and under what government would you rather live. A nation under rule of Saddam or a nation under Bush (who i am no fan).?
Click to expand...
Bush and the US. I have never indidcated anything good about Saddam.

What country USA or Iraq have done more for the people of this country and the world.?
Click to expand...
Trick question? The US.

By no means are USA perfect far from it but in all honestly how can this anti American feeling stem from this nation, i feel we owe to much to them.
Click to expand...
Do we owe them? For what? I don't think they done very much for others out of the goodness of their own hearts.
Sure, they give a lot of foreign aid to some countries, but so do we all.
Specifically for Ireland, what have they done?

So lads put on your thinking fairly hat and be honest, SADDAM HAD TO GO !
Click to expand...
It is excellent that he is no longer in charge of Iraq. The only problem I have with the whole thing is the way America went about it.
 
Re: Poor old America

Many people hoped that the US might take stock of their foreign policy after 911 and look at the roots causes of the hatred directed at them. They didn't.
Click to expand...

The US for a long time followed an isolationist 'lets just mind our own business policy' and what happened?...... they got attacked by the Japs. They switched away from isolationism after realising their folly.

What Al Qeida et al. despise is the western way, not strictly the american way, I think its fair to say. You and me Piggy....... are infidels.

However lucky for you and me, our security bill gets picked up by american tax dollars. If Europe had to protect herself our taxes would be alot higher. (Example; if we sent our antiquated bombers in after Milosivec we would have turned the place into a car park).

Now I'm not strictly advocating US foriegn policy, I think theres sometimes a naievity there and a 'softer' power should be used in conjunction, but fundamentally I believe the US and americans are good people with good intentions and they deserve a bit of respect for that, along with some friendly advice.
 
MF

So...you gave Maceface the benefit of the doubt that it was the latter...that you thought he was a troll!! How is that giving him the benefit of the doubt?
Click to expand...
Better to be a troll than a bigot, though maybe you don't agree. Now who's selectively reading other's posts?
 
Re: Poor old America

What Al Qeida et al. despise is the western way, not strictly the american way, I think its fair to say

I don't know an awful lot about Al Queda I'll admit...but a lot of their gripe has been with American interference and troops in the Middle East hasn't it.

You and me Piggy....... are infidels.

Well, it makes a change to be called something else for a change

However lucky for you and me, our security bill gets picked up by american tax dollars

Hmmm...I don't know if I'd necessarily agree with that. Europe could easily defend itself if need be. The French and British combined would have a formidable arsenal.
Also, aren't there Economic reasons for wanting to 'defend us' as you put it?

but fundamentally I believe the US and americans are good people with good intentions and they deserve a bit of respect for that, along with some friendly advice.

I've no doubt that America is full of good people. What I often doubt is their politicians and the companies behind them.
While the US has undoubtedly done a lot of good in the world, and in many ways helped shape modern society they have also been a part of a lot of destructive and immoral goings on in the world. I can give you plenty of examples of grave injustices and atrocities doled out by various US administrations long before Iraq or 911. Again, going back to the butter and toast analogy, that doesn't mean that other nations haven't done these things too...but the debate is focused on US foreign policy and the significance of their foreign policy as the sole superpower on the planet over smaller nations is clear.
 
Re: Poor old America

The US for a long time followed an isolationist 'lets just mind our own business policy' and what happened?...... they got attacked by the Japs. They switched away from isolationism after realising their folly.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but this is very incorrect. The reason they were attacked by the "Japs" was because they were crippling the Japanese economy by not allowing oil through to them.

What Al Qeida et al. despise is the western way, not strictly the american way, I think its fair to say. You and me Piggy....... are infidels.
Click to expand...
I don't think it is really the "Western Way" they oppose, just more of the modern way. They were set up by the Americans in the 80s to help the fight against the spread of Communism when the Russians invaded Afghanistan.
Interestingly, there are another group of people who are against the modern world and all the "filth" that goes with it - the Amish.

I agree with Piggy here. Europe is well capable of taking care of itself. Sure, we (Ireland) don't have any real way of defending ourselves, but that is what makes international institutions such as the UN all that more important to us.

Well, we agree on something. I do have respect for a lot of what the country does, and I do not have a single problem with any normal American person. My issue is with the American institution and what it is doing to the world.
I wish we could give them some friendly advise, but for some reason, they don't want to hear it.

I do think Tony Blair has a lot of anwering to do with what has happened recently. We are all too aware in this country of what happens when you fight fire with fire. Look at the state of the North in the 70s. It never solves anything.
We have all learned a lot about terrorism in this country, and I think we know that the best way to defeat it is to isolate the people causing the attrocities.

Even so, I would still like to make the distinction that Iraq and Sep 11 are in no way linked.
 
Re: Poor old America

I think the point is simple here. So allow me to simplify it for those who cannot seem to grasp it and resort to branding anti-war opinions as pro-Saddam opinions

Saddam Hussein and his Regime were bad. Bad for Iraq, Bad for the Middle East and Bad for the World.

9/11 ( which, for those of you who insist on trying to relate it to the Iraq situation even though they could not be any further separated) was horrendous. Osama and the suicide bombers are Bad.

This is obvious and nobody here has tried to deny any of these facts.

What we are trying to say is that there are reasons for these actions and whether they are justified or not America have to reconsider their foreign policy.

If you kill your enemy, his family will seek revenge. If you treat people with respect you won't have so many enemies !!!
 
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