Poor old America!!

  • Thread starter johnjames2010
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Re.maceface

Maceface, you are making no attempt to be balanced in your comments, to view America and George Bush in the context of the would we live in or to judge her by the subjective moral standards of other nations.
The conduct of her detractors must be taken into account when deciding how much credence you give to their criticisms.
if America can not see the point of views of others and do something to change that, then nothing will be solved.
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You could try that yourself there maceface.

I do not support the invasion of Iraq but it is about 60-40 against, as with most things in life it's not black and white.
To say it is is just intellectually lazy.
 
Re: Re.maceface

if America can not see the point of views of others and do something to change that, then nothing will be solved

purple,

As usual you offer balanced views to the debate which can only be a good thing.

However, what Maceface said above is correct and I used to harp on about it quite a lot. Until the US starts to seriously review their foreign policy then anti-Americanism will grow stronger and stronger, particularly in the Middle East.

It's very different for us over here. We only see firsthand the benefits of American investment etc...I'm sure your view might be very different if you were living in Iraq or Afghanistan, or Pakistan (not your view, but the average view is what I mean).
 
Re: Re.maceface

I have many good friends in America, I love American film and literature, I love American music. The American people are amongst the friendliest and most welcoming in the world. There are many things to love about America. The sad thing is that it is no longer a democracy (Bush wasn't really elected), it is no longer free (Corporations run it) and the majority don't seem to care about that anymore. They are blinded by patriotism to the flag, when their real patriotism should be to the American Constitution.
 
Re.Piggy

However, what Maceface said above is correct and I used to harp on about it quite a lot
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I agree, I just don't like the shrill high moral tones being taken here. America is a great country, to be anti-American is to be anti democracy and anti-freedom.People who say they are anti American don't really know what they mean.
To be anti George W Bush and the people in the shadows that run him is a very different thing. Piggy, you are anti Bush, we have had that discussion but for maceface to say he is anti American, not against their foreign policy in the middle east and/or elsewhere, just anti American full stop... that just dumb!
I have read other posts by maceface, he is not stupid by any means so I have to come to the conclusion that he is letting emotions get in the way of reason. I am sorry to sound so patronizing here but that's where a debate becomes an argument. Please spend a bit more time defining and targeting what you are actually against.
 
Re: Re.Piggy

"America is a great country, to be anti-American is to be anti democracy and anti-freedom."

I dont think anybody would claim to be anti-American! Maybe anti-Bush Administration would be closer to the truth!
America is not a democracy. And the Americans are far from free when you think of all their intelligence agencies who listen in on all comms, people getting flagged for purchasing certain products or books!
America is run by the major corporations these days and as Shnaek said, they are blinded by a misguided patriotism to their flag when they should be loyal to their Constitution!
 
Poor old America

Fair point redboy.. you have finally shown some common sense. Still my question goes unanswered.

What if a foreign terror cell unleashed a huge act of violence and killed 3.500 people in our beloved country. What would you expect our government to do next?

Lets forget now about any IRA-British links. Surely you agree a country must take revenge.. and its not as easy just to pin point the terror cell, one must go after a whole infrastructure.. and unfortunately that involves innocent people being caught up.... just like all those in the twin towers were innocent.
I feel all these Arab terrorist are selfish animals because they fight for themselves and religion not there countries... excluding Palestine
 
Re: Poor old America

Surely you agree a country must take revenge.. and its not as easy just to pin point the terror cell, one must go after a whole infrastructure.. and unfortunately that involves innocent people being caught up.... just like all those in the twin towers were innocent.
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That's a very simplistic view and it ignores the fact that it is generally a good idea to look at why you were attacked in the first place, and don't say it is "because they hate freedom and our way of life".
 
leaving piggy alone for a while

Red (well named) please don't talk nonsense. America not a democracy, America not free. One of the greatest freedoms you can have is the freedom and indeed the werewithal to leave your country. I hope you will admit that all Americans have the former and many have the latter (due to the superior economic performance of their system).

Surely the greates test then is ho many avail of this freedom. If America was such an oppressive regime as you state we would all be setting up immigration controls against asylum seekers from that country. Instead we all feel thankful if they run a lottery to let our less fortunate citizens join them.

I also sense, though I have no proof, that Iran doesn't have the same chronic need to control immigration as the US.
 
US

Its a well known fact that Saddam used to ( when he was in power ) reward the families of suicide bombers financially. The families of the bombers, not the families of the victims.

He used genocide against the Kurds, in his own country.

He invaded Kuwait.

He operated a system of torture and execution to control his people, many of who lived in fear.

He had plans years ago for a supergun, to bomb Israel.

And Piggy still thinks the sun shines out of his ......, at least compared to the awful Americans.
 
Re.James

And Piggy still thinks the sun shines out of his ......, at least compared to the awful Americans.
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James, Piggy has not said that. In fact he had stated that Saddam's Iraq was worse than America in other posts. I disagree with many of his views and think he doesn't balance his opinions in the context of the realities of the world we live in, but you can't extrapolate that he thinks Saddam was great compared to America from what he had said here.
This is the problem with Letting off Steam; a lot of people slag off the person rather than debating the points being made.
 
Re: Re.James

I agree, I just don't like the shrill high moral tones being taken here. America is a great country, to be anti-American is to be anti democracy and anti-freedom.People who say they are anti American don't really know what they mean.
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I know what I mean when I say I am anti-American.
It does not mean I dislike the people.
It does not mean I think everything they do is bad.

What it means is that they do a lot of really bad things and act as though there is nothing wrong with it and if anyone thinks there is, then there is just something wrong with them.

I don't know how you could say Anti-American is anti-democracy. That really is a huge presumption. By that reckoning, if I say I pro-China, then I am pro-Communism?
Same reasoning goes for anti-freedom.

To be anti George W Bush and the people in the shadows that run him is a very different thing. Piggy, you are anti Bush, we have had that discussion but for maceface to say he is anti American, not against their foreign policy in the middle east and/or elsewhere, just anti American full stop... that just dumb!
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I would like to disagree with that. It would not be correct to just put this at the door of Bush. It has been part of America for a long time. There entire foreign policy is imperialistic, but it is not just their foreign policy. It is the way as has been mentioned the big businesses run the country. The big oil and steel companies put Bush in power, but the same type of companies put past presidents into power.
These companies are the ones who exploit workers in third world countries (Nike). They demand subsidies to protect them against foreign competition (the illegal steel tariffs).
They want to drill for oil in the Artic.
I really dislike their news reporting. It is just complete propaganda. I don't like the way the people suck all this in and believe it.
I don't like the way foreigners are fingerprinted when they go into the country, or the way America is forcing all countries to adopt new passports if they want to stay on the Visa waiver program. I don't like the way all J1 Visa applicants have to have an interview.
I don't like the death penalty. In fact, America is 1 of something like 5 countries in the world to execute minors.
I don't like the way they say they have these great principals but yet they kidnap and torture suspected terrorists.
I don't like their gun culture.
I don't like the way Hollywood takes true stories from the past and makes the heroes out to be American.

Therefore, to be anti-American is to be against a lot of what they are about. It is not against everything they are.

Little America does is for the good of anyone except itself. If they truely cared about other countries and people, they would have sorted out Africa a long time ago (BTW: That doesn't mean sending in the Army, it means working with the International community to bring peace and stability).

Purple, would you say you are anti any country?
What about anti-Israel? anti-North Korea? anti-Iran? anti-Iraq last year?
 
Bravo Maceface

I would like to add to the list of American abominations.

Murder of millions on unborn children.

Serial polygamy through revolving door divorce.

Hooked on pornography and spreading its poison through the accursed Internet.

Anti catholic as witnessed by only electing one in 40 and then assassinating him.

Anti catholic by trying to ban alcoholic consumption in the 20s.

Anti catholic especially througout the South where the KKK hold sway.
 
Poor old America

Finally some when with cop-on "james". Just read his article posted above about the reign of terror Saddam inflicted on people. The whole issue of WMD is a issue that will run and run. I doubt any of you pro-Saddam people on this website can believe they never developed chemical weapons, because as we know they where used to wipe out almost a whole Kurdish city.
Again it baffles me how idiots can post messages on this website disagreeing with the coalition invasion of Iraq.. do you believe people where happy under Saddam in Iraq, he invaded and killed hundreds of Kurds and people in Kuwait, but still ignorant people on this board still want to slate the coalition invasion.

Ask yourself one question what did Saddam ever do for you?
I bet you can list of the number of things the USA have done for us personally or this country.
 
Re: Poor old America

owensy,

If you want to be taken seriously here at all please point out the "pro-Saddam people on this website" with examples of where they said something to back this up.

Your posts don't seem to be very enlightened on the subject to be quite honest. Very simplistic arguments, not particularly based on anything that anyone's been saying either. Rather just the same old Saddam was bad, America is good yarn. Yet you refer to other posters as "idiots" and "ignorant people".

I'd suggest you back down on those points or even retract them or people here will just refuse to take anything you add to this debate very seriously from here on in.
 
I could'nt agree more Maceface. People seem to think it's impossible to be anti-America and if you are then you are racist. As mentioned already America is run by its major corporations. Therefore it is fair to say that America itself is like one big business. If you say you are anti-Nike or anti-Microsoft, etc, etc, it does'nt automatically mean that you despise each and every person that works for them. Just like if you say you're anti-America it does'nt mean you are a racist and you loath each and every American citizen. What it means is that as a whole you disagree with their actions and policies and more importantly with the way they treat others.

I have seen, heard and read about too much of the damage that America, as a country, has done around the world to ever even consider myself pro-America.

I like many things about America but I can say without hesitation that I am anti-America as I stand against the greedy self-centered corporation that is America !!

OH and before people like owensy and James get all excited at the prospect of accusing someone else of being a Saddam lover, my point of view does not give you the right to assume I am pro-Arab or pro anything else for that matter. Start reading people's posts and stop assuming things about them just because you have no valid points of your own !!
 
Ownsy,

One quick point over why it was totally wrong to go into Iraq.

The spin at the moment is about how evil and bad Sadam was.
On that reasoning, we could then invade most African countries (and supposedly reasonable ones like Egypt or Libya who allow torture), North Korea, most Middle Eastern countries (including Israel for the way it treats Palestinians).
After we "free" all these countries of their oppressive regimes, we could then decide to invade China. Then how about Russia for what it is doing in Chechnya? Maybe then America for how it treats the people in Camp Delta?
Hell, lets invade ourselves for the way the Police treated the protesters on that May Day (or the way the Gardai mistreat people).
Where is the line?

The simple fact is that there is a line which the UN agreed upon. That line was crossed when Iraq was invaded for reasons no one still knows or agrees on.
 
Poor Old America

Macefree and Piggy your so much taken in by the current climate about how evil the United States are its starting to become a laughing matter, can you not read men,
Your so far up Those anti America peoples a** it unbelievable, just think of all the evil things Saddam inflicted on his people and then come back and tell me Iraq is not a much better nation without FORMER ESTEEMED LEADER Saddam , not alone Iraq but the world..
its farcical that you feel this way about a dictator that gassed people.... Not even my friend George W Bush has done this act yet.
You need your own idea's man... not the current spin that is out their at the moment.
 
Re: Poor Old America

First off owensy, I've been talking about this war on this board long before it even began. It's previously been pointed out to you with cold hard facts that the majority of people across the world are against this war. The propoganda machine concerning this war, or spin if you want to put it that way, is very much on the side of the war.

Secondly, you're not adding anything to this debate bar some rather poorly made 'America good, Saddam bad' points. The world isn't that black and white. You also seem to lump all arguments that go against your own in the same boat.

Until you address the points I made in my last post in reply to what you previously stated how can you expect anyone to take you seriously anymore?

I'm beginning to think you're just trolling.
 
Re: Poor Old America

Interesting article there Redbhoy.
I thought it as a bit of a justification for the war which is interesting considering this website was slated as being a bunch of arnachists on May 1st.

While it does talk about the positives of these reasons, which I completly agree with, it does not bother to mention the problems with going to war over these issues.

My problem with all of this is that there is now a precedent for pre-emptive war. Israel followed this by assasinating the Palestinians heads of Hamas, and no doubt some other countries will use this as a justification for going to war with another country in the future.

Ownsy, your not serious here are you?
 
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