If this levy was being taken from our deposit accounts we at least would have the option to close our accounts and withdraw the money. When the raid is on pensions we have no options.
Pension levy on DC schemes to fund deficits in DB schemes
- Thread starter ashambles
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If this levy was being taken from our deposit accounts we at least would have the option to close our accounts and withdraw the money. When the raid is on pensions we have no options.
The charge by my pension provider, weather I agree with the amount or not, is for them providing a service to me for managing my money.
The money the state are taking for me will not benefit me in anyway what so ever. It will benefit others who's pension have not been managed properly. I am paying for pension trustees not doing their job.
Basically as a paye/prsi employee in the private sector, I am funding for 4 pensions:
1 - My own defined contribution scheme
2 - My state OAP (assuming its still there when I am eligible to receive it)
3 - The pensions of the public sector
4 - The under funded defined benefit schemes for the ESB etc.
Seems fair.................
1 - My own defined contribution scheme
2 - My state OAP (assuming its still there when I am eligible to receive it)
3 - The pensions of the public sector
4 - The under funded defined benefit schemes for the ESB etc.
Seems fair.................
Raging Bull
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Gollum: They're thieves! They're thieves! They're filthy little thieves! Where is it? Where is it? They stole it from us, our precious. Curse them! WE hates them! it's ours it is, and we wants it! We wants it, we needs it. Must have the precious. They stole it from us. Sneaky little Politicians. Wicked, tricksy, false!
Smeagol: No! Not master.
Seems like our interests are subservient now...this would have to be unconstitutional sure they could have probably got away with last levy on basis of it being for job creation and common good...cant see a common good argument here to pay for private deficient schemes
Smeagol: No! Not master.
Seems like our interests are subservient now...this would have to be unconstitutional sure they could have probably got away with last levy on basis of it being for job creation and common good...cant see a common good argument here to pay for private deficient schemes
The_Banker
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Techless,
Points 1, 2 and 3 I understand.... Point 4... that this levy will be used to other DB schemes like ESB etc... This I dont understand..
How can this be so?
See the quote from Michael Noonan's speech in the first post of this thread:
"additional levy on pension funds at 0.15%. I am doing this to continue to help fund the Jobs Initiative and to make provision for potential State liabilities which may emerge from pre-existing or future pension fund difficulties"
The levy is partly to fund schemes such as the Waterford Crystal one where the government has to (has been ordered to by EU court) bail out a poorly run/funded scheme.
I think if we conducted a poll we would all be in agreement that this is theft, remember this when it comes to the next election, I am not connected with any party but these Fine Gael and Labour TD's need to be booted out, ensure everyone you know gets out to vote, let's not forget we need a long memory as by nature we just get on with it and any complacency will benefit these people. Boot them out....
Revenge is best served cold.
Revenge is best served cold.
I'm sure FF will promise to get rid of the levy and then do a u turn at the election and increase it!
Maybe so, who knows maybe it is again time for another political party to surface before the next election, I don't like saying this but I can see Sinn Fein having runaway success and if that happens then our current TD's party wide have a lot to answer for, I can't believe I'm saying this but as a conservative voter I can see myself giving them a Number 1....Is this what it has come to..
So because FG/Labour have imposed a (for the moment) small % tax on a small portion of the country's 'wealth', you are going to vote for SF!!! Things aren't that bad - I really hope this isn't what it has come to. Nothing would get me to emigrate quicker than a Sinn Fein government.
It's a big problem though - there is no clear alternative for a conservative voter.
Taxes/Levies are at their best when they are simple and fair. My income is well above average and I have taken hits and cuts on many fronts over the last 6 years. Lucky me I can afford to and I am not one for whinging and moaning. I can honestly say I haven't complained once on my own behalf.
My problem with this is the complete absence of equality. It is imposed on those in PRSAs and DC schemes, and to a lesser extent on those in the DB schemes. So far as I can see there is no equivalent imposition on those making the decision (the politicians) or their cosseted advisors (the civil/public service)***. This is the bit that is killing me. Despite my reservations, I sucked it in when the levy was announced 3 years ago, as an acceptable simple short-term one-off to raise some cash in the National Hour of Need. A key element of that acceptance was the promise that it was a 4 year measure and would not be renewed or extended.
Now that the levy has become permanent I will be letting my three government TDs (2FG, 1L) know that they will never receive another vote from me, as they and their predecessors have received in every election since my first in 1977. Obviously I have no intention whatsoever of ever voting for either of the FF guys, and so that will leave me in a poll booth confronting the prospect of voting SF. I'm not calling it yet, but I honestly never thought I would see the day when a vote for SF would be a serious consideration for me.
*** And coincidentally, these are the people who have the best pension arrangements in the country.
My problem with this is the complete absence of equality. It is imposed on those in PRSAs and DC schemes, and to a lesser extent on those in the DB schemes. So far as I can see there is no equivalent imposition on those making the decision (the politicians) or their cosseted advisors (the civil/public service)***. This is the bit that is killing me. Despite my reservations, I sucked it in when the levy was announced 3 years ago, as an acceptable simple short-term one-off to raise some cash in the National Hour of Need. A key element of that acceptance was the promise that it was a 4 year measure and would not be renewed or extended.
Now that the levy has become permanent I will be letting my three government TDs (2FG, 1L) know that they will never receive another vote from me, as they and their predecessors have received in every election since my first in 1977. Obviously I have no intention whatsoever of ever voting for either of the FF guys, and so that will leave me in a poll booth confronting the prospect of voting SF. I'm not calling it yet, but I honestly never thought I would see the day when a vote for SF would be a serious consideration for me.
*** And coincidentally, these are the people who have the best pension arrangements in the country.
Brendan Burgess
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Hi punter
I understand your annoyance fully and you have expressed it very well indeed. You articulate how I feel about it.
I don't go with your conclusion though.
Or are Sinn Féin promising to scrap the pension levy?
I think the Government is way wrong on this one, but I think if Pearse Doherty was the Minister for Finance, we would have far bigger problems to worry about.
Mind you, he is probably sharp enough to be practical if he ever did get into a position of power.
I understand your annoyance fully and you have expressed it very well indeed. You articulate how I feel about it.
I don't go with your conclusion though.
Or are Sinn Féin promising to scrap the pension levy?
I think the Government is way wrong on this one, but I think if Pearse Doherty was the Minister for Finance, we would have far bigger problems to worry about.
Mind you, he is probably sharp enough to be practical if he ever did get into a position of power.
'' So because FG/Labour have imposed a (for the moment) small % tax on a small portion of the country's 'wealth', you are going to vote for SF!!! ''
It is a combination of all things Orka, for me the Ministers lie is not to be mistaken for a political u-turn, yes lie about the removal of the pension levy, the continuance of it until the end of time and of course it will increase, property taxes ( big problem there ) and numerous other cuts by a thousand knives. My decision made since yesterday is not for changing, unlike the Minister if I say I'm going to do something well I do it.
To depart from the main parties is not taken lightly, there are 4 votes in my house and each concur..hardly a swing but if replicated then goodbye FG/Labour, remember the Greens lads...consigned to history as this clutch of FF/Labours will be next time out, I may even canvass for somebody I like this time, influence as many as possible.
Remember the Alamo !
It is a combination of all things Orka, for me the Ministers lie is not to be mistaken for a political u-turn, yes lie about the removal of the pension levy, the continuance of it until the end of time and of course it will increase, property taxes ( big problem there ) and numerous other cuts by a thousand knives. My decision made since yesterday is not for changing, unlike the Minister if I say I'm going to do something well I do it.
To depart from the main parties is not taken lightly, there are 4 votes in my house and each concur..hardly a swing but if replicated then goodbye FG/Labour, remember the Greens lads...consigned to history as this clutch of FF/Labours will be next time out, I may even canvass for somebody I like this time, influence as many as possible.
Remember the Alamo !
Brendan
I understand that my frustration with this will appear to be out of proportion to the actual cost to me. But in simple terms, it isn't the money, it's the abject lack of fairness. I will hijack the thread if I fully explain why, but here are a few simple issues:
It isn't the money............
The Tax/PRSI changes over the last five years cost me far more than the pension levy, and the changes in PRSI weren't entirely equitable, but I have no problem with those. Why? Well if you take say 5% from a person on €150,000pa it costs them €7,500 gross, €3,750 net and probably means they keep one of the cars for an additional year. Take the same percentage from a person in the same circumstances on the standard minimum wage, €15,500pa, it costs them €775 gross, which is also €775 net and probably means taking food off the table. So it made perfect sense to anyone with a hint of a social conscience, when the tax/PRSI rates increased, that they increased to disproportionately penalise the better off. The important point is that change applied equally to me, Michael Noonan and the Sec Gen of the Dept of Finance in so far as our circumstances are similar. That doesn't make the change any more welcome, but it does make it socially equitable.
It's the abject lack of fairness................
There is a far deeper underlying inequity where pensions are concerned, and this levy exposes it. I have put money aside over the years to fund my pension. I have to. DB schemes are no longer an option and so I am now in the perfect storm that is the DC world. Lousy interest rates, lousy annuity rates, unsettled markets, poor fund performance, fat pension industry margins, lack of transparency and value for money, not a single mutual left, fund/contribution caps which are now genuinely impacting on any opportunity to play funding catch-up, total responsibility for all pension decisions including fund choices resting in my incompetent hands and the entry date for the OAP moving away from me. Against this horrific background, I am still trying to fund for my retirement and my contributions are maxed out. The result of my efforts is a pot containing a significant six figure sum - so it is not for want of trying on my part. And yet, despite this, my pension, should I choose to retire at 60, will be a pittance at the outset and subject to serious inflation erosion when in payment. In simple terms, I must work until I am 67 when the OAP commences. And even then my total pension will not be anything exceptional. This is despite having contributed to my pension fund aggressively and very much above the norm for many years.
Contrast this with a friend of mine who is of similar vintage (early 50s). He retired from a public service position last year, with 32 years service. His final salary was approx €55,000. He never in his life contributed to a pension. His pension is over €32,000. This is indexed (by virtue of linkage to the current salary scale for similar grades) for the remainder of his days, and is state guaranteed. It is actually impossible for me, no matter how I try, to arrange for a pension like this. It simply can't be done. And this levy not alone further undermines my efforts, but exacerbates the lack of fairness when Private Sector pensions are compared with those in the Public Sector.
Michael Noonan, Brendan Howlin, John Moran, Robert Watt and their like all benefit from a very attractive pension arrangement. In fairness, they now have to make a small (in relative terms) contribution to this via the PRD. The ultimate in fairness would be for me and every other citizen to be able to "opt in" to the Public Service pension arrangements (i.e. pay the PRD and get the same benefits as those in the Public Service), and if I were given the option to pay the PRD in return for those benefits I would accept in a heartbeat. However, while we wait for that to happen, the least I and those in the same situation could expect is not to have our miserable efforts to provide for our retirement ridiculed with this levy. As I said earlier, I had grave reservations about the levy it was originally introduced, but sucked it in as I was asked to do as a "short term measure in National Good". This volte-face, not just making the deduction permanent but increasing it in 2014, is the straw that will break this camel's back.
So will I vote SF ? I can't honestly say at this juncture. But I am running out of alternatives. I know that I will never ever vote FF, and if I take FG/LAB out of the equation there isn't really much left. This crowd have squandered a lot of opportunities and made a lot of mistakes. Easy to forgive them in the first couple of years, lack of cabinet experience, overwhelmed with enormity of problem etc. but the aren't really getting to grips with any of the substantial reforms required. It's all tinkering around within the framework set out by Brian Lenihan. With a bit of regime change on the part of SF I am certainly starting to think that I might at least give them a hearing and in fact will almost feel obliged to do so. And I know, I am quite shocked to think I just wrote that, but I did.
I understand that my frustration with this will appear to be out of proportion to the actual cost to me. But in simple terms, it isn't the money, it's the abject lack of fairness. I will hijack the thread if I fully explain why, but here are a few simple issues:
It isn't the money............
The Tax/PRSI changes over the last five years cost me far more than the pension levy, and the changes in PRSI weren't entirely equitable, but I have no problem with those. Why? Well if you take say 5% from a person on €150,000pa it costs them €7,500 gross, €3,750 net and probably means they keep one of the cars for an additional year. Take the same percentage from a person in the same circumstances on the standard minimum wage, €15,500pa, it costs them €775 gross, which is also €775 net and probably means taking food off the table. So it made perfect sense to anyone with a hint of a social conscience, when the tax/PRSI rates increased, that they increased to disproportionately penalise the better off. The important point is that change applied equally to me, Michael Noonan and the Sec Gen of the Dept of Finance in so far as our circumstances are similar. That doesn't make the change any more welcome, but it does make it socially equitable.
It's the abject lack of fairness................
There is a far deeper underlying inequity where pensions are concerned, and this levy exposes it. I have put money aside over the years to fund my pension. I have to. DB schemes are no longer an option and so I am now in the perfect storm that is the DC world. Lousy interest rates, lousy annuity rates, unsettled markets, poor fund performance, fat pension industry margins, lack of transparency and value for money, not a single mutual left, fund/contribution caps which are now genuinely impacting on any opportunity to play funding catch-up, total responsibility for all pension decisions including fund choices resting in my incompetent hands and the entry date for the OAP moving away from me. Against this horrific background, I am still trying to fund for my retirement and my contributions are maxed out. The result of my efforts is a pot containing a significant six figure sum - so it is not for want of trying on my part. And yet, despite this, my pension, should I choose to retire at 60, will be a pittance at the outset and subject to serious inflation erosion when in payment. In simple terms, I must work until I am 67 when the OAP commences. And even then my total pension will not be anything exceptional. This is despite having contributed to my pension fund aggressively and very much above the norm for many years.
Contrast this with a friend of mine who is of similar vintage (early 50s). He retired from a public service position last year, with 32 years service. His final salary was approx €55,000. He never in his life contributed to a pension. His pension is over €32,000. This is indexed (by virtue of linkage to the current salary scale for similar grades) for the remainder of his days, and is state guaranteed. It is actually impossible for me, no matter how I try, to arrange for a pension like this. It simply can't be done. And this levy not alone further undermines my efforts, but exacerbates the lack of fairness when Private Sector pensions are compared with those in the Public Sector.
Michael Noonan, Brendan Howlin, John Moran, Robert Watt and their like all benefit from a very attractive pension arrangement. In fairness, they now have to make a small (in relative terms) contribution to this via the PRD. The ultimate in fairness would be for me and every other citizen to be able to "opt in" to the Public Service pension arrangements (i.e. pay the PRD and get the same benefits as those in the Public Service), and if I were given the option to pay the PRD in return for those benefits I would accept in a heartbeat. However, while we wait for that to happen, the least I and those in the same situation could expect is not to have our miserable efforts to provide for our retirement ridiculed with this levy. As I said earlier, I had grave reservations about the levy it was originally introduced, but sucked it in as I was asked to do as a "short term measure in National Good". This volte-face, not just making the deduction permanent but increasing it in 2014, is the straw that will break this camel's back.
So will I vote SF ? I can't honestly say at this juncture. But I am running out of alternatives. I know that I will never ever vote FF, and if I take FG/LAB out of the equation there isn't really much left. This crowd have squandered a lot of opportunities and made a lot of mistakes. Easy to forgive them in the first couple of years, lack of cabinet experience, overwhelmed with enormity of problem etc. but the aren't really getting to grips with any of the substantial reforms required. It's all tinkering around within the framework set out by Brian Lenihan. With a bit of regime change on the part of SF I am certainly starting to think that I might at least give them a hearing and in fact will almost feel obliged to do so. And I know, I am quite shocked to think I just wrote that, but I did.
Punter , I am confused by your comments regarding your friend's public sector pension .
All pre 1995 Public Sector employees typically paid 6.5 % of their salary by way of a pension contribution , such contribution has increased in recent years .
Public Sector employees are entitled to a maximum pension equivalent to one half of their final years salary after 40 years salary - € 27,500 in your friends case & he in all probability only received a pro rata amount after working 32years.
Your friend , unlike you , will not receive the OAP.
All pre 1995 Public Sector employees typically paid 6.5 % of their salary by way of a pension contribution , such contribution has increased in recent years .
Public Sector employees are entitled to a maximum pension equivalent to one half of their final years salary after 40 years salary - € 27,500 in your friends case & he in all probability only received a pro rata amount after working 32years.
Your friend , unlike you , will not receive the OAP.
Obviously depends what part of the public sector the friend was in but pre-1995 civil servants didn't pay towards their pension (there was a 1.5% contribution towards spouse/childrens pensions). From http://www.cspensions.gov.ie/faq1.pdf (established pre-1995 civil servants including prison officers):
Do I pay contributions for these benefits?
There is no personal contribution towards their own personal pension for officers who pay modified PRSI.
Officers pay contributions of 1½% of pay for spouses’ and children’s pension benefits.
I have discounted completely receiving the contributory state pension,I do not believe I will be eligible for it when I retire despite working all my adult life and paying PRSI.
Its very hard to know how to plan for my retirement,every time I turn around the rules have been changed and the Govt has dipped my pockets in a fashion that is just short of being criminal...funnily enough Govt ministers pensions do not suffer in the same fashion as they are paid on a first call basis out of day to day expenditure.
I invested in property and well thats just a car crash in slow motion,I accepted that risk and built it in but never anticipated the degree to which the Govt again layered tax after tax after quango on me.
Shares??I have my entire pension fund in the damnable stuff,bonuses paid to fund managers regardless of performance.
I have 25 years to retirement and frankly at this stage I feel like throwing my hat at it,I would be better off on the dole...at least when I retire I will be guaranteed a pension,medical card etc...depressing.
Its bad enough that the State has lost sovereignty but to see it reduced to the level of a common thief,way laying its taxpayers & lying and mugging its citizens just sickens me.
Coincidentally the Waterford Crystal pension issue is in front of the High Court this week to determine the percentage to be paid to the members of the DB scheme !
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