Pension fund units

In 1 you've invested 1,000 (100*10)
In 2 you've invested 2,000 (200*10).

You're invested in a poor performing fund. Have you heard the expression that you shouldn't throw good money after bad?

You seem to be under the illusion that this fund is somehow going to suddenly catch up with rest of the market?
In 1 and 2 i have invested the same amount. Each month i make the same contribution. In 1 i have been buying units at a high price so i have a low volume. In 2 i have been buying units at a low price so i have a high volume. This makes me think that having more units will maximise the upside if the fund starts performing.

I totally agree that the fund has been a disaster but YTD it has performed 2% which isn't far behind some other more popular funds. My fund choices are limited. It is a company pension fund which only offers MAPS 2,3,4,5,6, consensus fund, exempt active, global indexed. I think consensus is the best but reluctant to cash out of GARS right now and buy into a new fund with a high unit price (i.e. get a low volume of units).
 
In 1 and 2 i have invested the same amount. Each month i make the same contribution. In 1 i have been buying units at a high price so i have a low volume. In 2 i have been buying units at a low price so i have a high volume. This makes me think that having more units will maximise the upside if the fund starts performing.

I totally agree that the fund has been a disaster but YTD it has performed 2% which isn't far behind some other more popular funds. My fund choices are limited. It is a company pension fund which only offers MAPS 2,3,4,5,6, consensus fund, exempt active, global indexed. I think consensus is the best but reluctant to cash out of GARS right now and buy into a new fund with a high unit price (i.e. get a low volume of units).
Thought you might like to know that it cost my wife nothing to change to another fund instead of GARS.
 
I didn't realise that, apologies. But the same principal applies, if that broker was paid a fee. Setting up a pension should include occasional reviews and realignment of investment, instead of banking the fee and disappearing.

If you had your house rewired, would you expect the electrician to call around once a year to make sure everything was alright? Why would it be any different for a financial advisor?

If the terms of taking out the pension contract is that the advisor receives a renewal fee, they should provide ongoing advice for that fee. If they only receive a fee for setting up the policy, if you want subsequent reviews, you will have to pay for it. You can't expecting people to work for free, giving up time that can be spent on fee paying clients.

Steven
http://www.bluewaterfp.ie (www.bluewaterfp.ie)
 
reluctant to cash out of GARS right now and buy into a new fund with a high unit price (i.e. get a low volume of units).
I think you're over focusing on units. Maybe someone else can explain better. You should look at the value, not the units.

Option a. Let's say you've 20k invested in fund a. It increases 20%, now you've 24k.

Option b. You've got the same 20k. You switch it out of units of fund a, and into units of fund b. Fund b increases 20%. Now you've 24k.

I'll be honest - I've absolutely no idea what the unit price if my pension is, or how many units I have. I know the value has increased 20% in the last year.
 
The GARS fund is invested in a series of bets. For example the CAD/JPY FX rate, INR/KRW FX rate. And relative value bets, like small cap Vs large cap. As an example, if anyone heard about the inverted yield curve in US last year, they might have thought 'so what?'. If they were invested in GARS they lost 0.4% of their investment as the fund had bet against it. How can an advisor explain to an investor why their fund hasn't done well?

These make great sales brochures - 'we can even make money in a falling market'. The reality is they're expensive, and have a poor performance history even in one of the longest bull markets in history. Fund managers love them - they charge big fees for doing what traders do best; making the ballsiest bets in the room with other people's money.

When the fund came out, there was a day long presentation on how it works. A day for a fund!! If it takes that long to explain, there's no chance most clients will understand. I remember one of the bets being German luxury goods v Swiss Pharma. In a bull market, people will buy BMW's but in a bear market the Swiss Pharma will win because people still need their meds.

It was a fund that was launched to great fanfare after the recession. I never really got into it as I wanted to see how it did in a bear market, which will still haven't had. It looks like it's strong initial performance is more down to "a rising tide lifts all boats".

Steven
http://www.bluewaterfp.ie (www.bluewaterfp.ie)
 
If you had your house rewired, would you expect the electrician to call around once a year to make sure everything was alright? Why would it be any different for a financial advisor?

If the terms of taking out the pension contract is that the advisor receives a renewal fee, they should provide ongoing advice for that fee. If they only receive a fee for setting up the policy, if you want subsequent reviews, you will have to pay for it. You can't expecting people to work for free, giving up time that can be spent on fee paying clients.

Steven
http://www.bluewaterfp.ie (www.bluewaterfp.ie)

Interesting analogy. An electrician would certainly stand over his work and would return for a period of time to ensure that such work was of high quality. If you had any problems they would repair it, as part of the service.

The Financial Advisor can skedaddle with the fee, and if his advice turns out to be costly, he will charge you another fee, with no guarantee that his advice would be any more useful.
 
It's true irrespective of the fund's assets. The Net Asset Value (NAV i.e. the unit price) is calculated at each dealing point including all assets types. If the fund divests of an asset between dealing points, the NAV at the next point will reflect the new total of net assets. As a unit holder, you have no direct stake in any specific asset - it is a colective scheme. The fund itself is the legal owner. You buy or sell shares at a price drivn by the net asset values. Whether the fund changes strategy, invests in different asset classes or is "long vs short" doesn't impact that
It's nothing to do with legal ownership. When you make regular investments into a long-only fund you are buying claims on the future earnings (and thereby performance) of the invested asset class. Hedge funds are not an asset class. They are a set of diverse investment strategies that are applied to different asset classes. So if you make regular investments in a hedge fund you are not 'buying high / buying low'. You are in effect making a series of bets at different prices. This is not the same as cost averaging in a long-only fund. If the bets pay off you may make a lot of money, but if they don't your expected outcome for each regular investment is the fund's objective, (e.g. “cash plus X%” etc.), which it may or may not deliver.
 
Interesting analogy. An electrician would certainly stand over his work and would return for a period of time to ensure that such work was of high quality. If you had any problems they would repair it, as part of the service.

The Financial Advisor can skedaddle with the fee, and if his advice turns out to be costly, he will charge you another fee, with no guarantee that his advice would be any more useful.

Ha! You think an electrician would come back a few years later and fix something as part of the service? Do you think they are Dyson?
 
Ha! You think an electrician would come back a few years later and fix something as part of the service? Do you think they are Dyson?

Not sure, they may do, if they want to keep further business.

Here's my financial advise for anyone thinking of investing in stocks,


You can buy a dartboard and darts for 15 quid off Amazon
 
In 1 and 2 i have invested the same amount. Each month i make the same contribution. In 1 i have been buying units at a high price so i have a low volume. In 2 i have been buying units at a low price so i have a high volume. This makes me think that having more units will maximise the upside if the fund starts performing.

I totally agree that the fund has been a disaster but YTD it has performed 2% which isn't far behind some other more popular funds. My fund choices are limited. It is a company pension fund which only offers MAPS 2,3,4,5,6, consensus fund, exempt active, global indexed. I think consensus is the best but reluctant to cash out of GARS right now and buy into a new fund with a high unit price (i.e. get a low volume of units).

It might seem unintuitive but you really need to stop think about absolut number of units (or even absolute unit price). It's the product of the two that matters.

As a simple example - if I invest €1,000 into two funds (A and B). A has a unit price of €1 and B is €100. I get 1,000 units of A and 10 units of B. Let's assume the two funds are actually copying each other and have the exact same portfolio and both have stellar months and posy 100% return. The value of my holding in A is : 1,000 units * €2 = €2,000. My value in B is : 10 units * €200 = €2,000

So it's the % returns the funds have rather than the unit price (or number of units) that drives everything. Having more units doesn't affect your % return.

And the unit price also depends on where the fund launched. The starting unit price is an arbitrary decision by the manager / administrator. Some funds start at a price of €1 per unit, some at €1,000. So comparing the absolute price at some pont in the future doesn't really tell you much.

So - I know you think more units will make you richer quicker. But, unless the fund itself outperforms, it makes no difference at all
 
It's nothing to do with legal ownership. When you make regular investments into a long-only fund you are buying claims on the future earnings (and thereby performance) of the invested asset class. Hedge funds are not an asset class. They are a set of diverse investment strategies that are applied to different asset classes. So if you make regular investments in a hedge fund you are not 'buying high / buying low'. You are in effect making a series of bets at different prices. This is not the same as cost averaging in a long-only fund. If the bets pay off you may make a lot of money, but if they don't your expected outcome for each regular investment is the fund's objective, (e.g. “cash plus X%” etc.), which it may or may not deliver.

If you have shares in a fund (irrespective of stratgey) you have no claim on the underlying assets or earnings. What you have is a share in the economic performance of the fund as a legal entity. It might seem like splitting hairs but it's actually important. Every fund, whether long only or something with a more esoteric strategy, continuously changes its portfolio. Therefore as investors come in and out of the fund, in order to provide a fair valuation of the fund, the fund recalculates its current total value by assessing the current market price of its investments/assets ("mark to market") and dividing by the number of outstanding shares or units. That value is used to issue new shares or repay people leaving the fund.

That process is exactly the same for long only funds as it is for more exotic straetgies; long-short, total return etc. These may be blanketed with the term "hedge funds" but it's such a broad term that it is effectively meaningless. It was originally meant to describe a strategy that was a hedge against regular market volatility. Some hedge funds are extremely low volatility so have a place in a portfolio. But to describe them as "a series of bets" misundertands them.

Your original point that an investor in a long only fund is buying into the claims on the underlying asset is not strictly true. But I understand how a holding of an equity position in a long only fund might seem more tangible than, for exmaple, a foreign exchange position... or a spread position "long Volkswagon / short Tesla" (to use a topical discussion on these boards). But actually they are all the same for a fund investor. When you buy shares in the fund, you share the economic benefit from the current and future investment positions in the fund from that date forward (you don't obviously gain any benefit from the historic performance of those positions).
 
Thanks everyone for your explanations and advice. I'm not sure how long this will last but GARS seems to be bucking the trend.
Can anyone explain why? When should i bail out?
GARS YTD 2,64%
MAPS 6 YTD -0.34%
CONSENSUS YTD 1.65%
 
If you have shares in a fund (irrespective of stratgey) you have no claim on the underlying assets or earnings. What you have is a share in the economic performance of the fund as a legal entity. It might seem like splitting hairs but it's actually important. Every fund, whether long only or something with a more esoteric strategy, continuously changes its portfolio. Therefore as investors come in and out of the fund, in order to provide a fair valuation of the fund, the fund recalculates its current total value by assessing the current market price of its investments/assets ("mark to market") and dividing by the number of outstanding shares or units. That value is used to issue new shares or repay people leaving the fund.
You are spitting hairs. Anyone who invests in a fund and reads the prospectus is or should be aware of this.

That process is exactly the same for long only funds as it is for more exotic straetgies; long-short, total return etc.
The process by which a fund actually establishes a unit price may be equivalent, but you're not investing in the same things. Investing in a hedge fund is not the same as investing in conventional asset classes. If the OP was told or given the impression that regular investments in a hedge fund is the equivalent of regular investments in an asset class (i.e. productive assets the share common characteristics) he has been poorly advised.

One rationale for regular investing in an asset class is (a) the tendency for asset classes to mean-revert; and (b) the propensity of assets to increase in value over time due to e.g. increased earnings power, scarcity, etc. As hedge funds are not an asset class they do not so express mean-reversion; and as they are a series of trades, e.g., long/short, equity market neutral, global macro, convertible arbitrage, etc., they have no inherent earnings power or scarcity value.

Furthermore, the return on individual assets is essentially (a) compensation for the risk of investing in the asset class and (b) compensation for the risk of holding the individual asset. The latter is 'alpha ' risk that is diversified away within the asset class and you are left with non-diversifiable risk or 'beta'. As you have diversified away alpha risk you have also removed the reward for the risk of holding it. Hedge funds, by their investment strategies, aim to maximize the return for holding alpha risk. That's why you invest in them – to obtain the rewards associated with holding alpha risk. So by making regular investments in a hedge fund the OP is in essence buying alpha risk. But as he appears to have only one fund – the hedge fund – he has no beta risk and is missing the rewards associated with holding it. I doubt this is a good investment strategy.

These may be blanketed with the term "hedge funds" but it's such a broad term that it is effectively meaningless. It was originally meant to describe a strategy that was a hedge against regular market volatility. Some hedge funds are extremely low volatility so have a place in a portfolio. But to describe them as "a series of bets" misundertands them.
'Bets' is a colloquial expression for such strategies.. One fund in which I invest says in the first line of its prospectus “This fund invests in trades.” It can't be clearer that that. If the Financial Times can use the term 'bets' it in relation to certain hedge fund strategies https://www.ft.com/content/bfab7d66-91d4-11e9-b7ea-60e35ef678d2 are you suggesting the FT misunderstands hedge funds?

Your original point that an investor in a long only fund is buying into the claims on the underlying asset is not strictly true. But I understand how a holding of an equity position in a long only fund might seem more tangible than, for exmaple, a foreign exchange position... or a spread position "long Volkswagon / short Tesla" (to use a topical discussion on these boards). But actually they are all the same for a fund investor. When you buy shares in the fund, you share the economic benefit from the current and future investment positions in the fund from that date forward (you don't obviously gain any benefit from the historic performance of those positions).

Investment companies do not market their products in such terms. Zurich Life e.g.. says straight out that their funds “offer investors the opportunity to invest in a concentrated portfolio of stocks, chosen and actively managed by Zurich Life”. To any average Joe this is an offer to obtain the rewards associated with investing in a selected group of stocks. And investing in its most basic definition is establishing a claim on the performance of an asset. Otherwise nobody would do it.
 
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