Participants in the Fair Deal Scheme should be obliged to rent out their houses

Sophrosyne said:
Your thoughts on this subject seem to be coloured by that example and then you shot from the hip without thinking of the wider consequences or conducting a modicum of research.
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Hi Sop

That is a very accurate way of characterising the way I think and write about things. Most of my posts are obviously "shot from the hip" :rolleyes:
 
Gordon Gekko said:
It is an asset, obviously, but its value is generally ignored when assessing an individual's financial position.
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It is generally ignored. But it should not be.

Gordon with €1m in shares and no house, is in the same position as Brendan in a €1m house with no shares. People make a psychological segregation of them which has no basis.

Brendan
 
Brendan Burgess said:
We are not punishing people for going into a home. We are not forcing anyone to rent their home.
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Hi Brendan

Some of the many individual complexities around situations where people need to avail of nursing home care have been outlined by several contributors to this thread and the difficulty that renting out would entail. I have no doubt that there are many more. I am not going to-hash previous posts.

If the aim is to facilitate people to rent with a view to helping in the housing crisis, there are positive, carrot ways to achieve that. That you seem to consistently ignore carrot approaches gives the impression (rightly or wrongly) that this is not your primary motivation -rather a gripe (excuse the terminology) about people freeloading in some way through Fair Deal. I think most of the contributors have accepted that Fair Deal is imperfect and could be reformed (I certainly do),so that is not the issue.

Rather it is the consistent focus on one approach that I, and apparently many others,regard as punitive.

For me the aim of any reform should be (a) to make the scheme more sustainable financially and (b) to make it more flexible and responsive to individual circumstances. I certainly think that there are other approaches to the first that are more likely to be politically attainable and, in my view, more humane. I think your proposal runs directly contrary to (b).

There are always anomalies in any scheme but I doubt that freeloading is a major one in Fair Deal. I would certainly like to see the evidence.
 
There are hundreds/thousands of homes all over Ireland belong to millionaires who aren't tax resident in Ireland and who only spend a small part of the year here. They could easily stay in hotels anytime they fly in.
Why aren't the Govt talking about forcing those houses to be let out?

Here's 1 for FG to start with
https://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0906/472692-denis-obrien/

The main issue here being the shortage of accommodation and FD is being used as cover to potentially increase supply as well as get more revenue in for the Govt.
 
thedaddyman said:
So let's suppose I have to put my mother in a nursing home and she if forced to rent out her house to pay for it. Let's get practical around this for a second
  • Who is going to manage the renting of the house as me and my sister live a number of hours away?
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There are plenty of people renting out houses well away from where they live. They used agent.

Where are we and her grand children meant to stay when we go to visit my mother, hotels? Will that be a tax-deductible expense in this new solution to the housing crisis?
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No. When you visit your mother, you look after you own accommodation. Or maybe move her into a nursing home close to you.

  • What if my mother comes out of a nursing home, perhaps she gets better, can we evict the tenant and move her back into her own home?
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It's a rare occurrence. And absolutely. The lease agreement should be allowed to specify that if the house is required for the owner to move back in, they have to leave at 30 days' notice.

  • What if the house can't be rented, out in the coutry or attached to the farm ran by the son. Does anyone have any faith that those circumstances are handled correctly by the state?
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The house would then be sold. What happens at present under the Fair Deal Scheme when the person dies?

  • And when she passes away and we want to sell the house, are we entitled to evict the tenants or are we forced to become reluctant landlords like many in negative equity. if we evict, where do the tenants go? will this create a viscious cycle of short term lets for people
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No, the tenant's lease would expire in the normal circumstances. The executor can renew it or not as they see fit.

  • Where can we have the wake?
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Do without one or have it in your own house.

  • If we can't evict, the house can't be sold, does that not reduce supply and drive up prices?
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Not at all.

This idea is like something out of 1980's communist Romania. What's next, force them to take in a lodger to pay for medical treatment?
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As I have pointed out before calling an argument names is not a valid counter-argument.
 
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Delboy said:
Why aren't the Govt talking about forcing those houses to be let out?
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Again, as I have pointed out before on many occasions - the fact that something might be wrong in some other part of the tax system or the housing system, does not mean that it's ok to leave these houses empty.

If someone wants to leave a house empty, they probably should be allowed to do so. But I should not have to pay more taxes so that they can afford to leave their house empty.

Brendan
 
Delboy said:
There are hundreds/thousands of homes all over Ireland belong to millionaires who aren't tax resident in Ireland and who only spend a small part of the year here. They could easily stay in hotels anytime they fly in.
Why aren't the Govt talking about forcing those houses to be let out?

Here's 1 for FG to start with
https://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0906/472692-denis-obrien/
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Because those types would be likely to be rather more assertive than the average nursing home resident in defending their constitutional and human rights against assault by the State.
 
thedaddyman said:
So let's suppose I have to put my mother in a nursing home and she if forced to rent out her house to pay for it. Let's get practical around this for a second
  • Who is going to manage the renting of the house as me and my sister live a number of hours away?
  • Where are we and her grand children meant to stay when we go to visit my mother, hotels? Will that be a tax-deductible expense in this new solution to the housing crisis?
  • What if my mother comes out of a nursing home, perhaps she gets better, can we evict the tenant and move her back into her own home?
  • What if the house can't be rented, out in the coutry or attached to the farm ran by the son. Does anyone have any faith that those circumstances are handled correctly by the state?
  • And when she passes away and we want to sell the house, are we entitled to evict the tenants or are we forced to become reluctant landlords like many in negative equity. if we evict, where do the tenants go? will this create a viscious cycle of short term lets for people
  • Where can we have the wake?
  • If we can't evict, the house can't be sold, does that not reduce supply and drive up prices?

This idea is like something out of 1980's communist Romania. What's next, force them to take in a lodger to pay for medical treatment?
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To add to this, who would be responsible for organising and paying for the necessary repairs and upgrades required to bring the property up to scratch for renting purposes? I would absolutely refuse to do this and I don't see how I could be compelled to do it.

I must say that there are some quite disturbing ideas on this thread.
 
That doesn't address the question of whose repsonsibility it might be to organise and pay for it. The person in the nursing home can't do it themself, so who should do it? The nursing home management?
 
Delboy said:
The main issue here being the shortage of accommodation and FD is being used as cover to potentially increase supply as well as get more revenue in for the Govt.
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For the avoidance of doubt, there is no government proposal along the lines being suggested by Brendan.

The new Minister for Housing has, however, given notice that a "vacant homes tax" will be introduced shortly (although he has said that people in nursing homes will be exempt from this new tax).
 
Andarma said:
That doesn't address the question of whose repsonsibility it might be to organise and pay for it. The person in the nursing home can't do it themself, so who should do it? The nursing home management?
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The same people that caused or fueled (and continue to fuel) the current housing crisis.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
And it's a huge problem to have homes lying vacant while people are in nursing homes.
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Are there statistics to support this? How many of the unfinished /uninhabited houses/holiday /2nd homes out there are the property of people in hospitals or nursing homes?
Brendan Burgess said:
The primary one is the shortage of housing. I really think that we need to address this whatever way we can. We should not incentivise people to leave their homes vacant.
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There is no real housing shortage because there are empty houses aplenty that need to be occupied. How many of them are empty due to their elderly owners being in hospitals or nursing homes? What percentage of the so-called housing problem would attacking the rights of the old and infirm to own empty homes fix?

Let me posit a real scenario.

One son lives and works in America with his wife and children. Another son lives in Dublin with his wife and children. A single daughter lives and works in London. Each of them travels to see their mother who is in a nursing home in Co Cork, adjacent to the family home which is empty as the mother is a widow. All of the children, their spouses and their children travel "home" as often as they can to visit their mother/mother-in-law / Granny. Where do they stay? In a hotel or a B&B or in the home (not a just house, not just a property) they grew up in? What about other family members who visit from Donegal or Louth?

And BTW, the people in nursing homes and their families paid enough taxes between them and are making little if any call on what I paid down the years.
 
I have to admire your staunch position Brendan, as you haven't relented one bit. But for me it was your opening line of your first post which got my back up. Its something I would expect to hear from the not so clued in Politicians. This sector has nothing to do with the homeless crisis and is nothing more than the flipflopping that is currently going on in Government buildings.

I can tell you Greed, by everyone included, got us to where we are, so while your intentions are good, they are TOTALLY misplaced here. It has also been a very emotive topic by many here, and its for that reason have to ask the question, and I ask only because everything need to be on the table when discussing such a widely posted issue, but do you have Kids, because this whole debate is family orientated. If you dont, then I can see your argument, because if I didnt have kids, I would be in your camp.

Most people I believe, agree with the principle of pay your way, but because of the waste of public funds through out the years, the incentive to claim and stay on Social Welfare etc, I dont want anyone dictating what I do with my Family home. I have worked flamin hard for it... and I say now.. KEEP YOUR MITS OFF THIS, and concentrate on the real issues. This is nothing more than a smoke screen for the calamity Ireland is in.
 
The State created the housing crisis by enacting a range of planning and tax measures in 2009 that effectively shut down both the last vestiges of the building and property investment sectors and, by design, blocked the eventual recovery of both to normally sustainable levels once the worst of the economic crisis was over.

This was all done at a time when the population of the country continued to rise.

No corrective action has been made in the intervening 9 years. Yes, nine whole years. So unsurprisingly the State and its apologists have been looking everywhere for scapegoats.

First it was profiteering landlords, cue rent controls that have arbitrarily beggared the most decent of landlords who were letting below market rents and enriched the more unscrupulous ones who were extracting every last cent from their tenants.

Then they threatened to shut down self-catering tourism, a threat that appears to still stand.

And now they're after the old and the sick.

Election 2018 will be some fun. Here's a cheap prediction: Fine Gael will return to the Dáil with fewer seats than they had after their Election 2002 bloodbath.
 
LS400 said:
I have to admire your staunch position Brendan, as you haven't relented one bit.
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Hi LS

Go back through the thread and look at the counter-arguments. Most are emotional. It's probably to do with the Irish and property. Don't touch my home, but please pay me for my accommodation in a nursing home so that I can afford to leave it empty.

Here are the emotional arguments which have no value in terms of the argument:
There are lots of empty houses and we are doing nothing about them, so we should do nothing about these. (We should do something about all empty houses.)
Denis O'Brien's house is empty. So what? We are not paying for his accommodation elsewhere.
This is barbaric - name calling isn't arguing
It would be politically unpopular - never a reason for not doing what is right
Some houses can't be let because of where they are and the condition they are in - fine rent out the houses which can be.
The government caused the housing crisis - not the people who are being encouraged to leave empty houses.
"Do you have kids Brendan?" - completely irrelevant as you show immediately with "If you dont, then I can see your argument, because if I didnt have kids, I would be in your camp." Whether you have kids or parents should not be relevant. (Mind you, it's the closest I have got to anyone agreeing with me.) You might like or dislike a particular proposal as a result, but we are arguing about what is good for society not what is good for you or for me.
It wouldn't be practical. Who would rent out the house?
You are picking on the old and the vulnerable. I also pick on the young and the vulnerable who are on Jobseekers Allowance when I call for that to be cut.
The family home is sacrosanct.


So what are the arguments with some force?
It penalises people who have saved up to buy a house and pay off a mortgage, thus discouraging people from being responsible. The problem with this is that most of our taxes and public spending does this. I have been the loudest campaigner for cuts to non-contributory social welfare, so I understand the argument.

They have already paid enough taxes. This might have some force if it were true. But it's not. One of the other posters has pointed out very articulately that the taxes were not designed to pay for nursing home care.

It's very upsetting for the people involved. I am not unsympathetic having put my aunt in a nursing home recently. But renting out the house is not the upsetting part. It's the leaving of the home to go into a strange place.

Apologies if there was any argument which I omitted which had any force.

So, in short, people are arguing emotionally. As you say "the opening line got your back up".

Part of the reason the country is in the state it is in, is because we are not prepared to allow our politicians to make tough decisions in the interest of society as a whole. And we will savage anyone who dares to challenge the conventional view.

Brendan
 
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