Participants in the Fair Deal Scheme should be obliged to rent out their houses

[thedaddyman]

The sheer lack of humanity in this idea and much of the discussion around it is absolutely appalling. Getting an elderly relative moved to a nursing home is often a difficult enough task, many ( and I'm speaking from experience here) only do so in the belief that it is respite care for a few weeks or months and not accepting the fact that they will never return home. We shouldn't underestimate the psychological impact being told they now have to rent out the home they raised their family in to pay for that care would have on some of these people. We should also remember that this is a generation who grew up on stories of the Tans and the British evicting people from their homes and now the suggestion that in 2017 Ireland has turned full circle and are now going to do the same to vulnerable people beggars belief. In addition, for many elderly people who are living at home, it will put significant fear and uncertainty into their lives with the belief that if they get any illness, they can be turfed into a home. What's next, bring back workhouses?

A previous poster mentioned that often these houses are used as bases for family members and this is correct

Our older generation deserve a bit more respect then rubbish like this. And remember, we'll all be old someday ourselves so be careful what you wish for

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Is that not what you are suggesting?

i.e. that people are compelled to sell or rent out their family home?

I have referred only to cases where people have gone into nursing homes. I have not suggested forcing anyone out of their home.

I wouldn't even be compelling people to sell or rent their house. I would just be saying "If you want me to contribute towards the cost of your nursing home care, I will gladly do so, but only after you have rented out or sold your home."

If they don't want to sell their home or rent it out fine. But don't ask me to fund that.

Brendan

 

[Brendan Burgess]

And remember, we'll all be old someday ourselves so be careful what you wish for

I hope to get old.
If I go into a nursing home while I still own a house mortgage free, I will not be asking your children to pay for it.

It's bonkers to expect this.

Brendan

 

[odyssey06]

I hope to get old.
If I go into a nursing home while I still own a house mortgage free, I will not be asking your children to pay for it.
Brendan

I wouldn't expect them to either, I'd expect them to take it from all the taxes I paid them hitherto... the taxes that at the time paid for those children's education etc etc
Now the generational account is being balanced?

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi Odyssey

We have €200 billion of national debt and €300 billion of unfunded pension liabilities. No one is paying their way. I think we should begin to do so.

Brendan

 

[odyssey06]

Hi Odyssey
We have €200 billion of national debt and €300 billion of unfunded pension liabilities. No one is paying their way. I think we should begin to do so.

Let's abolish the social welfare system then. I can pay my own way and I won't look for anything from the state, but don't use a single cent of my taxes to pay for social support for anyone else.
If you want to have an individual balance sheet, I'm open to that, but people need to know to expect that when they make provision for their retirement.

The people in the Fair Deal scheme now, they paid taxes all their life, you can't start counting the balance sheet from when they went into the scheme and ignore all the contributions they made up until then.

The figures above are so bad due to the absolute inability of governments to control spending and get value for money from expenditure.

 

[jjm]

Hi Odyssey

We have €200 billion of national debt and €300 billion of unfunded pension liabilities. No one is paying their way. I think we should begin to do so.

Brendan

There is a good chance the people who are now in nursing homes have paid there way and have also invested in the people who are now on good wages most people know this but there will always be the few who do not .

What we are now down to is some of the present generation don't want to help the next generation and are expecting the people who are in nursing homes to give them a free pass which is not going to happen,

 

[thedaddyman]

I hope to get old.
If I go into a nursing home while I still own a house mortgage free, I will not be asking your children to pay for it.

It's bonkers to expect this.

Brendan

bonkers is a fair description for your idea. You'd be perfectly happy for my childrens taxes to pay for your doctor's, nurses, ambulences and whatever else, so why not share some of the costs of your nursing home?. After all, your taxes paid for their education and up bringing.

You are completely missing the moral requirement any society has to take care of it's vulnerable people

 

[Early Riser]

We have €200 billion of national debt and €300 billion of unfunded pension liabilities. No one is paying their way. I think we should begin to do so.

So now we are back to the funding issue. Then lets address it as such. Increase the cap beyond the 7.5% and 3 year limits. Do not put intolerable burdens on families (and costly administrative burdens on the system) at this stressful and complex time.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

I have referred only to cases where people have gone into nursing homes. I have not suggested forcing anyone out of their home.

I wouldn't even be compelling people to sell or rent their house. I would just be saying "If you want me to contribute towards the cost of your nursing home care, I will gladly do so, but only after you have rented out or sold your home."

If they don't want to sell their home or rent it out fine. But don't ask me to fund that.

Brendan

Can the same not be said of most forms of benefit?

Why should we pay a State Pension to this person? Why not force them to sell their home and buy an annuity?

The "victims" in this scenario are people who've paid their taxes and been prudent. I have no issue with them getting a "Fair Deal". Far more deserving than (for example) the tripe we're being fed about "the homeless" on a daily basis. "Homeless" means sleeping rough, not some single mother with a sense of entitlement who thinks that a State funded hotel isn't good enough for her.

I can see your point but I'm more concerned at the overall narrative that seems to be gaining traction, which is an attack on people who pay their way (e.g. a hardening of Fair Deal, CGT on family homes, etc).

 

[Early Riser]

This is a glaring omission as public debate is now centering on forcing long term invalids to rent out their houses to solve this 'crisis'.

But is there such a public debate ? Has it been seriously raised elsewhere from this thread (where I think it has been thoroughly debunked) ? The problem from the outset here is that two unrelated issues have been conflated in a way that serves only to cloud both.

I am not knowledgeable about the details of the homelessness situation but I doubt if the solution may be as simple as you suggest. However, I do note that in addition to the housing stock that you allude to above, our Local Authorities have turned down over 2000 homes for social housing from NAMA. (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/soc...2-000-nama-homes-for-social-housing-1.2924785) .

The lack of housing units per se does not seem to be at the root of the homelessness situation. Fair Deal is a red herring here.

However, quite separately, Fair Deal funding needs to be reviewed. As our population age it will become increasingly unaffordable in its present format. The cap of 7.5% over 3 years is arbitrary and inadequate. Confining its application to nursing homes (rather than including appropriate -and cheaper - homecare packages) is insane and inhumane (although beneficial to nursing home owners). If it is not funded better more and more people are going to be left on waiting lists. Why protect 78% of the PPRs value for inheritors rather than providing for people's needs?

 

[Brendan Burgess]

You are completely missing the moral requirement any society has to take care of it's vulnerable people

Not at all. If I have assets of €300k when I go into a nursing home, I am not financially vulnerable. I can pay my own way.

You should not have to pay for my nursing home care so that I can leave the bulk of the €300k to my kids.

If I have no means of paying for my nursing home, I would then expect you to pay for it.

Brendan

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Can the same not be said of most forms of benefit?

Why should we pay a State Pension to this person? Why not force them to sell their home and buy an annuity?

Gordon

I have been a big advocate of relating the pension to the contribution made.

If someone has paid PRSI for years, they should get a pension based on that.

For non-contributory pensions, the family home should absolutely be taken into the means test.

Brendan

 

[odyssey06]

1) It's wrong to leave houses empty so that the owner's children can inherit them.
2) It's unfair that I have to pay for someone else's nursing home care, when they can well afford it.

You're not paying for it. If they are this well off they will have been net contributors to the Exchequer over their lifetime, they have been paying it forward all their lives and now they are calling in their chips. The average stay in Fair Deal scheme is 35 months (as noted earlier in thread).
The state is getting 80% of their income per year, 7.5% of their assets per year, and 7.5% of the value of their home for 3 years which matches that average stay duration. That's a pretty large contribution.
The people whose nursing home care you are paying for, and paying the full cost of, is those who could not or did not make provision for such an eventuality and are making no contribution to the Exchequer for the cost of their care.

The consequence of proposals such as these will be to create more people acting like 'Drowsy' and less people acting like 'Sleepy Head' (as per @Early Riser)
I don't see good consequences for the Exchequer when that comes to pass.
You feel that the current structure of Fair Deal encourages property to be idle in a time of housing crisis.
This proposal encourages people to be idle or spendthrifts. It punishes prudence and encourages irresponsibility.
And that is wrong. And unfair.

 

[Early Riser]

Any government minister who starts talking about the vacant homes of private citizens as being culpable in the housing crisis is using it as a smokescreen to divert attention from their primary culpability

odyssey - In fairness ,the brief report I read of the Government's proposal suggested that they were considering offering incentives to people in Fair Deal to rent out their homes. I don't have a difficulty with this as it appears optional and doesn't require an added burden. It may suit some.

Brendan's mooted proposal is different as it would be compulsory - at the cost of a financial penalty. I do have a big difficulty with that, if I understood it correctly.

 

[jjm]

odyssey - In fairness ,the brief report I read of the Government's proposal suggested that they were considering offering incentives to people in Fair Deal to rent out their homes. I don't have a difficulty with this as it appears optional and doesn't require an added burden. It may suit some.

Brendan's mooted proposal is different as it would be compulsory - at the cost of a financial penalty. I do have a big difficulty with that, if I understood it correctly.

Be careful this will now opens the door for the lobby group for family busness/family farms and such like to get incentives ,

The present Attorney General advice in the last few weeks was that special allowances could not be given to certian lobby groups unless it applied to everyone looking for the fair deal I suspect the Government wants to create a loophole so lobby groups get there way and are using the Housing shortages as a way of doing so,

You cannot leave a Family farm or busness lie idle in the Real World If the owner has to go into a nursing home at present i think the nursing home will get a % of the income at present , By the time Brendan and the Government are finished the taxpayer will finish up picking up the tab and the houses problem will not gain any advantage from the incentives,These Incentives are not designed to help the people who suffer from a shortage of housing,

Google Attorney General Fair Deal and see report,

When the present Government was formed there was a review of the fair deal carried out .The results were not made public I wonder why,

 

[Early Riser]

When the present Government was formed there was a review of the fair deal carried out .The results were not made public I wonder why,

This review, jjm - or was there another one since then? Anyway, I think the funding proposals may have been too politically toxic. See Chapter 8.

http://health.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Review-of-Nursing-Homes-Support-Scheme.pdf

 

[jjm]

This review, jjm - or was there another one since then? Anyway, I think the funding proposals may have been too politically toxic. See Chapter 8.

http://health.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Review-of-Nursing-Homes-Support-Scheme.pdf

Thanks Early Riser
There was a review when the present Government took office the one above was carried out by junior minister K Lynch before last government left office,

Looking at Minister K Lynch review above on page 84 to 90 you can see only about 1% to 2% of the people in nursing homes fit the income range Brendan was on about ,taking 15.57% instead of 7.5% of the family home each year would bring in 26 million extra per year if I read it correctly.

Brendan suggestion of an incentive could finish up costing the taxpayer more in lost revenue if it creates a loophole ,

 

[Gordon Gekko]

One applies for Fair Deal, correct?

i.e. it's not mandatory and the choice is alway there to just pay the circa €60k a year yourself (€36k net of tax).

 

[Brendan Burgess]

One applies for Fair Deal, correct?

Yes, and it should remain so.

And if an elderly person wants to pay for their own nursing home care and keep their family home empty, then let them do so.

But we should not pay for someone's accommodation when they are leaving other accommodation lying idle.

Brendan