Paedophilia = Friendship that crossed a line?

[Any of ye have problems with being logged out when replying?? - did a detailed reply to Delgirl below that I havent the heart to retype. What follows is the short version, if you can believe that]

Delgirl - what happened 100's of years ago not relevant to the experience of a child having a christian upbringing in 2012.

One mans "brainswashed" is anothers "choosing to believe" or "having faith". Of those following mainstream christian religion - they are not being exploited, what harm is their religion doing to them?, none, those with faith feel its quite a force for good in their life.

Yes there are hyprocites, no religion has a monopoly on good or being the one true faith (yes, I know the catholic church's assertion), and you could be all good things without knowing anything of religion.

My point is that social problems getting worse, feral kids and dis-interested parents, christian religions are a source of good in helping to provide a 'moral compass'.

Re my own kids, I have no wish to pass on my cynicism re religion to them or make them the expression of my disgruntlement with the catholic church - catholic teachings will do them no harm at all, and we're in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
 
Betsy Og said:
Any of ye have problems with being logged out when replying?? - did a detailed reply to Delgirl below that I havent the heart to retype. What follows is the short version, if you can believe that.
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Yes, if it's a long post, it's better to compose it in Word and paste it in. Or maybe it was a sign from above? ;)

Betsy Og said:
Re my own kids, I have no wish to pass on my cynicism re religion to them or make them the expression of my disgruntlement with the catholic church - catholic teachings will do them no harm at all
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So it's ok for children to be taught that Catholicism is the only way and everyone else is wrong. It's ok to teach them that gay people will go to hell, it's ok to teach them that a priest can repeatedly sexually assault a vulnerable child, destroy their life and not suffer any consequences?

My son went to a non-denominational school and is a lovely, open-minded young man who does not descriminate against others who believe in organised religion or are homosexual, etc.

IMHO, forcing a child to embrace a set of beliefs they cannot yet fully understand is just wrong. Childhood should be a religion-free zone. Let them figure it out when they're ready. Religious instruction in schools should be limited to something along the lines of, "All religions are of value to those who follow them. As such, all are equally worthy of respect. Next subject."
 
delgirl said:
So it's ok for children to be taught that Catholicism is the only way and everyone else is wrong. It's ok to teach them that gay people will go to hell, it's ok to teach them that a priest can repeatedly sexually assault a vulnerable child, destroy their life and not suffer any consequences?


IMHO it's better to allow kids to grow up with a knowledge of all the world's religions and to allow them to choose what they want to believe, if anything, when their brain is sufficiently developed to do so and not to try to indoctrinate them with any particular beliefs or superstitions when they can't possible understand it.
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Stop the lights, you're dont honestly believer thats what's being taught? I can recall the tune of "Love one another as I have loved you, this is what our saviour told his 12 friends to do" - thats about as moralistic as it gets. I dont think its actually church teaching to repeatedly assault children.... Nor is gay bashing part of the cirriculum.

You are definitely projecting your anger with the church onto the national school system - is every teacher an evil drone of the worst elements of the catholic church???

I just think that the whole "let them pick their own religion" thing nearly puts them at more risk of getting into the more looney stuff - your average catholic knows there's no great magic in religion and you nod to the most of it and throw your eyes up to heaven (ironically) at the fruitier bits. Whereas if you've no experience of any religion, could you be at more risk of falling into a more extreme version (thats kinda what I meant by innoculation).
 
delgirl said:
It is well known that some paedophiles choose careers such as teachers, sports coaches etc. to gain access to children. ...
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Let me stop you right there. When someone tries to tell me "it is well-known that ..." I suddenly lose all interest in what they have to say. It is not a well-known fact to me nor maybe, even to others. Perhaps you have some evidential grounds for supporting your belief as distinct from "well known fact" but I don't
delgirl said:
... Priests are no different - the Catholic Church provides them with Authority, Secrecy and Protection! ...
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So if I read right, you allege that priests and paedophiles are analogous and priests are only different from non-priest paedophiles because they have church backing? I'm sorry but I cannot make that logical leap; it just doesn't add up for me.

Maybe commenting on my actual post would help keep you away from your apparent need to have an anti-church tirade.
 
mathepac said:
Let me stop you right there. When someone tries to tell me "it is well-known that ..." I suddenly lose all interest in what they have to say. It is not a well-known fact to me nor maybe, even to others. Perhaps you have some evidential grounds for supporting your belief as distinct from "well known fact" but I don't
So if I read right, you allege that priests and paedophiles are analogous and priests are only different from non-priest paedophiles because they have church backing? I'm sorry but I cannot make that logical leap; it just doesn't add up for me.

Maybe commenting on my actual post would help keep you away from your apparent need to have an anti-church tirade.
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I think what the Delgirl meant to say was that many paedophiles are attracted to professions or jobs where they have what they say in academic terms 'easy access to the prey' that is why you often read in media reports how social workers, priests, guards, teachers, estate agents, judges etc are convicted of paedophilia, sickening but true often the higher up the academic scale the higher the abuse.
 
delgirl said:
IMHO, forcing a child to embrace a set of beliefs they cannot yet fully understand is just wrong. Childhood should be a religion-free zone. Let them figure it out when they're ready. Religious instruction in schools should be limited to something along the lines of, "All religions are of value to those who follow them. As such, all are equally worthy of respect. Next subject."
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Hi delgirl, you forget one thing, across the world in all religions, you get the kids young and then you indoctrinate them and you have them for life and their children and their children's children etc etc, that's how religion survives and that is how it will go on into the future.

Education helps, it did in Ireland once free secondary education opened up in the sixties and then when more and more kids started going to university in the eighties they started questioning the Catholic religion which eventually led to its downfall or so to speak.
 
mathepac said:
Let me stop you right there. When someone tries to tell me "it is well-known that ..." I suddenly lose all interest in what they have to say. It is not a well-known fact to me nor maybe, even to others. Perhaps you have some evidential grounds for supporting your belief as distinct from "well known fact" but I don't.
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You're changing my words, I didn't say it was a well known fact, I said it is well known that some paedophiles (not specifically priests) choose professions which put them in a position of authority and allow them ready access to children.

Some of this evidence came from a friend who works in a centre in Ireland which specifically and exclusively provides treatment for priests and brothers who have been found guilty of, and have themselves admitted to, the sexual abuse of children. Some of these criminals have admitted that they joined the church as they knew they could access children.


mathepac said:
So if I read right, you allege that priests and paedophiles are analogous and priests are only different from non-priest paedophiles because they have church backing? I'm sorry but I cannot make that logical leap; it just doesn't add up for me..
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Again, these are your words, not mine.

mathepac said:
Maybe commenting on my actual post would help keep you away from your apparent need to have an anti-church tirade.
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Pray tell why I should be restricted to commenting on your post?

I am an atheist who has respect for all religions and for whatever individuals wish to believe in and gain comfort from. However, when it comes to the horrific abuse of children and cover up of this abuse allowing further abuse to take place, I'm happy to speak out against any church which allows this to happen and it just so happens that this thread is about the Catholic Church's pathetic response to it.
 
delgirl said:
I am an atheist who has respect for all religions and for whatever individuals wish to believe in and gain comfort from. However, when it comes to the horrific abuse of children and cover up of this abuse allowing further abuse to take place, I'm happy to speak out against any church which allows this to happen and it just so happens that this thread is about the Catholic Church's pathetic response to it.
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The thread is about an idiots response, not the Catholic Churchs ethos, which by the way doesn't teach that abuse is ok. When I went to school it was never 'my way of the highway' with regard to other religions, and I was never told that gay people would go to hell.
 
MrMan said:
The thread is about an idiots response, not the Catholic Churchs ethos, which by the way doesn't teach that abuse is ok. When I went to school it was never 'my way of the highway' with regard to other religions, and I was never told that gay people would go to hell.
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I dont think gay people will go to hell just for being gay. But the act of homosexual sex is a sin according to the RCC. Not only that, but sex outside of marriage is a sin, and marriage is defined as being between a man and a woman. So if you have gay sex (even in a civil partnership!) you are actually committing two sins.

Now correct me if Im wrong, but you can only get forgiveness for sins you repent of and are genuinely sorry for, right? And whats the point of having such a thing as sins at all if you dont get punished for not repenting of them? Otherwise we could all go round sinning joyously and never repenting with no worries? The ultimate punishment happens to be hell. Torture for all eternity in a what I can only imagine looks like the fires of Mordor. Add in a bit of Monty Python chained to the wall half naked beardy types and Bobs your Uncle. Your gay uncle that is. He's there because he didnt repent the sin of homosexual sex.
 
MrMan said:
The thread is about an idiots response, not the Catholic Churchs ethos, which by the way doesn't teach that abuse is ok.
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That 'idiot' Bishop John Kirby is an extremely powerful figure, not only in the Irish Catholic Church, but also in Rome.

MrMan said:
the Catholic Churchs ethos, which by the way doesn't teach that abuse is ok.
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The abuse was condoned by the Church by knowingly allowing it to continue.

Cases have also been brought against members of the catholic church's hierarchy who did not report sex abuse allegations to the authorities. It has been shown they deliberately moved sexually abusive priests to other parishes where the abuse sometimes continued. This has led to a number of fraud cases where the Church has been accused of misleading victims by deliberately relocating priests accused of abuse instead of removing them from their positions.

MrMan said:
When I went to school it was never 'my way of the highway' with regard to other religions.
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The vatican has issued a document stating that the Catholic Church is the only true Church!

MrMan said:
... and I was never told that gay people would go to hell.
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The Catholic Church specifically lists homosexuality as a sin in it's Catechism. We were taught both in school (Catechism) and in church that homosexuality was an abomination and a sin and that those practicing such abominations, along with idolaters, fornicators etc. were destined to go to hell.
 
Mods

Time to close this thread? - it is no longer a discussion but a succession of ill-informed rants.
 
Sunny said:
No more so than the one on the croke park agreement.
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Absolutely correct Sunny. There has always been lively debate in LOS and it's great that everyone can express their point of view.

It's a sad day for freedom of expression when if you don't agree with what's being written, the mods are asked to close the thread.
 
delgirl said:
Absolutely correct Sunny. There has always been lively debate in LOS and it's great that everyone can express their point of view.

It's a sad day for freedom of expression when if you don't agree with what's being written, the mods are asked to close the thread.
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If you want freedom of expression, tune into Liveline :)
 
delgirl said:
That 'idiot' Bishop John Kirby is an extremely powerful figure, not only in the Irish Catholic Church, but also in Rome.

The abuse was condoned by the Church by knowingly allowing it to continue.

Cases have also been brought against members of the catholic church's hierarchy who did not report sex abuse allegations to the authorities. It has been shown they deliberately moved sexually abusive priests to other parishes where the abuse sometimes continued. This has led to a number of fraud cases where the Church has been accused of misleading victims by deliberately relocating priests accused of abuse instead of removing them from their positions.

The vatican has issued a document stating that the Catholic Church is the only true Church!

The Catholic Church specifically lists homosexuality as a sin in it's Catechism. We were taught both in school (Catechism) and in church that homosexuality was an abomination and a sin and that those practicing such abominations, along with idolaters, fornicators etc. were destined to go to hell.
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I'll just bring you back to what you actually said, which is what I commented on;

So it's ok for children to be taught that Catholicism is the only way and everyone else is wrong. It's ok to teach them that gay people will go to hell, it's ok to teach them that a priest can repeatedly sexually assault a vulnerable child, destroy their life and not suffer any consequences?
 
truthseeker said:
I dont think gay people will go to hell just for being gay. But the act of homosexual sex is a sin according to the RCC. Not only that, but sex outside of marriage is a sin, and marriage is defined as being between a man and a woman. So if you have gay sex (even in a civil partnership!) you are actually committing two sins.

Now correct me if Im wrong, but you can only get forgiveness for sins you repent of and are genuinely sorry for, right? And whats the point of having such a thing as sins at all if you dont get punished for not repenting of them? Otherwise we could all go round sinning joyously and never repenting with no worries? The ultimate punishment happens to be hell. Torture for all eternity in a what I can only imagine looks like the fires of Mordor. Add in a bit of Monty Python chained to the wall half naked beardy types and Bobs your Uncle. Your gay uncle that is. He's there because he didnt repent the sin of homosexual sex.
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It doesn't change the fact that I wasn't taught at school that gay=sin. I would doubt that there are many people in the world that subsribe 100% with any teaching.
 
Kine said:
Scientology!
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Slightly off topic, but since you've mentioned Scientology - just read a really good, eye-opening book on the subject - "The Complex" written by John Duignan, an Irish man who spent 22 years as a high-ranking member of the church.
 
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