Overcharged by solicitor

[MOB]

UK lawyers have been shown, in one study after another, to have higher fee income than any other country in Europe. http://research.lawyers.com/European-Law-Firm-Cost-and-Profit-Survey.html The idea that legal fees in Ireland are in some way out of the ordinary is simply not supported by the facts. What we do have is a system where fee guidance and fee scales have not been allowed for many years and where the legal profession has been slow to implement suitable alternatives.

The whole system here still needs to head in the direction of England and Wales....[broken link removed]

I would not disagree with this. But what we will have at the end of this process is higher (but more transparent) fees. So to some extent, it is a case of 'be careful what you wish for'.

 

[mathepac]

UK lawyers have been shown, in one study after another, to have higher fee income than any other country in Europe. http://research.lawyers.com/European-Law-Firm-Cost-and-Profit-Survey.html ...

That particular survey shows a number of things about UK law firms (presumably solicitor firms as I believe barristers are not allowed to operate as corporate entities) including :

• a higher level of fee-income tied up (aged at almost 7 months!)
• higher costs (income less expenditure 32% in UK, 53% in Sweden) due to more support staff, higher IT costs, more expert costs.

So they need higher fees as it appears their practices are less efficient when compared with their European peers. This does not mean that comparing fees in Ireland and the UK is a valid exercise. It might be more appropriate to cast the comparison net a bit wider.

 

[MOB]

It is difficult to draw conclusions about 'efficiency' without getting fairly deep into data about practice mix. For example, an employed solicitor is treated as an overhead - so a firm consisting of one owner and two employed solicitors will have a high overhead, while a firm consisting of three partners will have a much lower overhead. But it is meaningless to look at this in terms of efficiency if by efficiency you mean the ability to deliver a quality service at a good price ( as opposed to, say, return on capital to the business owner)

However, revenue per fee earner ( whether partner\owner or employed lawyer) is an area where the UK stands above the rest.

 

[murphaph]

Having dealt with solicitors who were incompetent (as I said, wrong names on important documents) I can state honestly that I would pay more for a competent service which delivers what it promises at the outset.

 

[Latrade]

I've always received a detailed breakdown of the fees from my solicitor, so even when we've felt surprised at the expense, when it is broken down you can see where it has come from. Though the "phone charges", usually a couple of hundre euro, always seem a bit excessive. Especially when it's me who has to call them for up dates and get 5 minutes conversation.

Even the girls on those party lines don't get that kind of hourly rate...so I've been told...not that I'd use them or owt.

Not sure how the UK's gone in the last few years, but I bought property there and solicitors fees (all in) were £400. And that included all the searches etc.

 

[Complainer]

Hi there - its a simple remortgage.

Oh and by the way I need you to give the following undertakings.........discharge my car loan, visa bill, credit card bill. But I'm not going to tell you any of that because you might think that involved extra work because you had to check the amount, get redemption figures, to a particular date, which might change because I have not yet sorted out my life cover, insurance and valuation fees!

Oh and I don't know if the property is registered title or unregistered title, whether there is more than one mortgage, oh and did I mention that I built a huge extension with no planning permission ( oh, goodness me , does that matter? do you have to give a full certificate of title that makes you personally responsible for all the teeny tiny litle details that I choose not to tell you?) Yawn. oh and that I actually have two (or is it three?) top ups? All of which need to be dealt with.....discharged, paid off and registered.

Oh yeah and while you're at it, can you just change details of ownership - I forgot to tell the bank that even though we're both applying for the new mortgage that actually she is the sole owner so actually we can't both be on the mortgage because ( oh is'nt this like so funny!) I don't own the property.

So, you know what, maybe if we were'nt all so quick to believe that all the consumers are entirely straight up and honest with their solicitors and did not deliberately choose to fudge minor details to muddy the waters, and that all solicitors are deliberately out there to maul their clients, you might all just think that perhaps, ( just a thought) there might just be two sides.

And you do not need a law degree to tell the truth - or give all the facts when looking for a price.

mf

Bloody customers eh! Aren't they such a pain? It never happens that other trades or professions have to do a bit of work up-front to ascertain their client requirements and produce a decent quote - right?

Section 68 letters are a waste of time. Solicitors are allowed to send out a Law Society waffle based letter which talks about the complexities of this and that and the end of the letter tells you they can't possibly know how much it will all cost in the end. So long as they give you that letter (it's the same one for everybody) then they are covered and you have no comeback when you get a massive bill.

So keep walking until you find a decent solicitor with a decent reputation who will give you a decent quote.

 

[murphaph]

So keep walking until you find a decent solicitor with a decent reputation who will give you a decent quote.

I've got one now and he called me there today about one of the files I've just paid 3k for from previous solicitor. His exact words were "you remember saying you were going to the Law Society about firm x?, well I think you may have to". That was because he finally got to see the file today and he says "there's not much in it to be honest". As I said, tread VERY carefuly-there are lots of crooks in this game. Once you find a good one (current solicitor is an old friend of the mother) stick like glue to them.

 

[nuac]

Good post Mf1. Remortgages are notalways "simple". Family law legislation planning legislation, stamp duty etc etc are a fertile source of problems. In one area I know an office offering a very low priced conveyancing service has closed, leaving a number of problem cases for others to sort out.

 

[Kate10]

I agree with dazza that we can be our own worst enemies sometimes. I don't think there's any point in *****ing about clients (although I can sympathies having been on the receiving end of some outrageous lies over the years!). At the end of the day section 68's are there for our protection as much as protection of the client. We have to quote in a way that is understood. Personally, if someone calls for a quote I will explain the professional fee, VAT, and the outlay. If it's property I explain the difference between land reg and reg of deeds fees and I explain that here may be "hidden" extras that I won't know about until I see the title and meet with the client. I explain that "hidden" extras tend to be to do with engineer's certs and planning etc and how that is likely to come about.

TBH I have it down to a 6 minute shpeel, then I take an email or home address and a standard s68 goes out. It doesn't stop the bs you sometimes hear from clients (which is a complete pain in the ass and you can just picture them in the pub that evening *****ing about solicitors) but at least I can always be confident that I am in the right when it comes to fees and no client is going to get a "surprise" invoice from me.

To the op - tbh the fee you were charged was very fair. I'm sorry the solicitor didn't explain the fee clearly to you, but maybe in this instance you should put it down to experience? At least the work was done, was done well, and you weren't overcharged.

 

[Padraigb]

So, Kate10, your message is that a solicitor can give a client a good idea of the final bill in a few minutes? That seems like time well spent. In that, you show the professional fee as an item: that gives the client an opportunity to consider whether he or she thinks that is a reasonable amount for your time, expertise, and office resources (and perhaps debate the fee with you). All that seems very reasonable. So reasonable that it seems to me that any solicitor who will not do it is not being as professional as one should expect.

Just a small follow-up question: if something extra comes up, be it an unexpected complication in the transaction or an additional service required by the client, do you advise as early as possible of the impact on the final account? If you say yes, then I propose that you be held up as a good example for all your colleagues to follow.

 

[Bronte]

TBH I have it down to a 6 minute shpeel, then I take an email or home address and a standard s68 goes out.

And I think you should get the client to sign the letter with a copy for the client and original for you so that when they get the bill and are surprised you can furnish them with a copy of the estimate and we will have an end to client's getting unexpected bills ! Maybe a Law Society requirement that a signed copy of the s68 letter attached to the bill should be compulsory?

 

[Kate10]

Yeah Bronte I agree that would be ideal. I have to admit I don't do it for property transactions but I do make the effort to get a signed letter of engagement for commercial work where I will be paid an hourly fee.

Padraig yes I explain to the client that they will know about the extra as soon as I do. I explain also that the "extra" won't be paid to me, but rather will be paid to the engineer or architect who has to produce the cert needed to fix the problem with the title. In other words, the client will be the one retaining the engineer (although I will provide recommendations if needed), the client will attend at the house while the inspection is carried out, and the client will most likely agree the fee and pay the engineer directly.

I have very very rarely charged anything more than that quoted at the outset for a professional fee. At the end of the day a fixed fee really should be a fixed fee, and if complications arise I think I should deal with that as part of the original quote, unless the complications are so extreme that they change the nature of the transaction - i.e. I end up suing the purchaser/vendor on behalf of the client. That's the risk I take when I quote a fixed fee.

Giving accurate quotes is for my benefit as much as the client. I never want to send an invoice to a client that the client is not expecting. It makes my work environment even more stressful and chances are that client will not be back. I work hard to do a good job for my client. The last thing I want is to undo all that good work by not keeping them informed about fees.

None of this stops certain clients from lying through their teeth when it comes to paying up, of course. I think I have a fairly accurate bs detector when it comes to clients, but I have to admit I have been shocked in the past at what some clients will say and do. I think the current environment of solicitor bashing makes it easier for them to justify their behaviour. It is very demoralising.

 

[murphaph]

Juat wanted to say that your conduct sounds about the most professional I have ever heard of a solicitor. Keep up the good work Kate and I hope you are kept busy with repeat business, sounds like you deserve it.

 

[bond-007]

Well said Kate. Keep up the good work.

 

[Kate10]

Thanks guys - kind of you to say so. Have to say though that there are plenty of solicitors out there who do exactly the same.

 

[PaddyBloggit]

Thanks guys - kind of you to say so. Have to say though that there are plenty of solicitors out there who do exactly the same.

+1

My solicitor has always been top class.

His fees have never contained any surprises. He has, on occasion, gone that little bit further without additional charges e.g. updating my will for free etc.

There are honest people in all walks of life .... only to find them!

Once you find them ... hold onto them!

 

[Bronte]

+1

My solicitor has always been top class.

His fees have never contained any surprises. He has, on occasion, gone that little bit further without additional charges e.g. updating my will for free etc.

There are honest people in all walks of life .... only to find them!

Once you find them ... hold onto them!

+1 I've a great solicitor too. Actually we don't praise people who do the good jobs often enough, probably we focus too much on the bad stuff.

 

[MoonTheLoon]

One thing that really irks me is clients complaining about outlays; there's nothing a solicitor can do about Land Registry fees; why one bloke's house can cost 85 Euro to register yet the one around the corner is 675 Euro, etc.

I got royally screwed a couple of years back doing two affordable houses. I gave a written quote based on the information furnished to me and the draft Transfer sent with the Contracts, then before the closing Kildare County Council came looking for an additional 600 Euros in Land Reg fees. I told the clients who went berserk and accused me of being negligent and not giving a correct quote at the outset. They refused to pay and I wasn't interested wasting time in debate with them so I had to dock my fee and I got the princey sum of 388 Euros per conveyance.

Clients love to play dumb when it comes to outlays, and assume that it's all the solicitors money.

 

[Kate10]

That's really weird Moontheloon. I completed the purchase of an affordable house from Galway CoCo a few months ago. The clients (who are lovely people) paid all their fees including outlay upfront. However turned out Galway Co Co paid all land reg fees so I was able to refund the money.