Not told of arrears...

OK well I don't really know where to start but have a feeling this is going to be a long post so here goes...

Just over 4 years ago I bought a house with my girlfriend a couple of weeks before our second child was born. The house cost €225,000 and we took a mortgage of €207,000. We both had full time jobs and never really struggled too much to make ends meet.

The way we looked after the finances was that I would pay all bills and expenses and she would look after the mortgage and we would pay for our own cars, phones, etc. About 2.5 years ago she did admit that we had fallen behind by about €3,000. She was very upset about it and I was very annoyed because I had previously asked her about it and she lied. We borrowed to pay the arrears and I told her if she ever lied to me again it would be the end of us. We said we'd switch the mortgage to my account and I'd look after all the finances but I never got round to it. I've always asked her to make sure the mortgage was covered and she's always assured me it was.

Last night I got home and there was a letter from ICS. She normally arrives home before me and gets the post first but she's actually abroad for a few days at the moment (lucky for her I can tell you!). I opened the letter and started laughing. It said we are €20,001.59 in arrears. I was sure it was a mistake but rang her anyway just to make sure. She told me it was a mistake and not to worry about it. Well... I did worry. I started to add up figures etc and came to the conclusion that there was no way she could be covering her personal expenses and covering the mortgage. So I rang her again this morning (never even went to bed last night never mind slept)and she admitted that she hadn't been paying it. Needless to say I was devastated. 1 or 2 payments missed OK I could understand but €20,000 in arrears!

Of course she was very upset and said that she couldn't face telling me and thought she would get it back on track but slowly it developed into her not making any payments at all. Also around the time she started to get in trouble she lost her full time job but she has a part time sales job and sometimes it pays very well and sometimes it doesn't. I remember discussing finances with her at the time and she said we would continue as is and if she needed extra she'd ask (we have separate bank accounts). Little did I know she was already in trouble.

I should also point out that, this aside, we have a happy relationship and there are no other issues. We have two kids and it's a happy family house. We have a relatively good standard of living (no wonder!) but it wasn't that she was going off treating herself every month. There have been no excessive purchases apart from the odd weekend away maybe once or twice a year. There are also no drug, alcohol, or gambling problems. It would be easier for me to understand her way of thinking if there was some kind of problem like that but there isn't. It's just a case of what she thought was a small problem growing and growing until it's completely out of control. I have no idea yet if our relationship will survive this. One minute I'm angry and the next I feel sorry for her. She's home on Monday.

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So after talking to her this morning I rang ICS and explained that I had been kept completely in the dark and the letter yesterday was the first I had heard of our arrears. I must say the guy was extremely sympathetic and helpful.

He told me that there has not been a payment since Oct '07 (I nearly collapsed!) and that something happened in July'08... a civic order or repossession order or something (left my noted in work) but whatever it was he could stop it but told me it was in the hands of their solicitors now and I would have to get in touch with them, preferably through my solicitor. He explained that they have no desire to reposes the house and they would be happy to come to an agreement regarding repayment of the arrears. I suggested an over payment of €400/month and he said that would certainly be accepted. He said he's going to have a look at our file and would be back in touch. In the mean time I have to see a solicitor and come up with a proposal in writing. He's also assured me that all correspondence will now be sent to my work address and all calls will be to my mobile. On a side note... I did point out that if they had contacted me (they had my number) before now this would have never happened. They always contacted her.

So I thought I would post my story here to see if anyone has been through something like this and can offer some advice. My financial situation is as follows....

Household income... €3900 (min) up to €4,500 depending on her part time job.
Mortgage... €752 current normal repayment. excl TRS
Credit Union... €240/month (€10,000 debt) (€5,000 shares)
My car... €275/month about 8 payments left
Her car... not sure but a bit less.
Plus all the usually household bills.
Probably about €3,000 between us in Credit card bills.
I have no other loans but she does have a small one less than €2,000.

There are two things that immediately come to mind for us to save money... we both have been trying to quit smoking lately which cost €500-€600 a month for our 20 a day habit each. No better incentive than your home at risk to quit smoking. And also our youngest is in creche til 2pm every day (€125/week) when he doesn't need to be as she's not working now. So that's €1100 a month straight off. I'm sure there are loads of other areas we can cut back. Believe it or not we spent €1,500 doing up our sitting room last week. I just don't understand what she was thinking. Total denial!



If you have taken the time to read this post then thank you. If you have been through anything similar and can offer some advice please do so but purely financial advice only please. I'll leave the relationship advice for another day

I understand your total frustration ...............Both you and your Gf are best to face up to this straight away.

You could run a credit check on your Gf , with the Irish Credit Bureau . It would tell you whether she has a lot of loans outstanding etc .........as you can appreciate , she may owe more than you think.

Last time we got one done , it cost just € 6 , and listed all o/s loans etc .

This is the link :

[broken link removed]

Sorry to hear your troubles.

I am going to offer relationship advise I'm afraid but its simply stop this and 'you pay that and I'll pay that'.

Set up a joint account that you both have access to and agree on an amount to be credited to it weekly/monthly for bills etc. If she misses a payment you will know straight away as will she. Have one card for the account and only use it for its purpose ie to pay bills.

What you have agreed with the bank so far seems sensible.

Can't be of further help cos its too late but I'm sure other posters will give you some good advise.

You have gotten on well so far. Draw up the agreement, repay the arrears and keep the mortage going from your account.

People do tend to bury their head in the sand when the going gets tough. Its probably not what you want to hear but it does happen.

Good luck.

Hi there,

I totally feel for you and how let down you feel. Going through similar with my husband with business debt, he too put head in sand.

You seem more practical and savvy moneywise, so you should take over responsibility, and as previously suggested, a bank account setup for your joint expenses. One account for bills, so DD's come out for mortgage, bills etc only, then you can calculate what needs to be lodged per month with no surprises. No cards to be issued on the account.

Can you look at moving credit card bal to get interest only period and try and pay off over the interest free period, or ask the credit union to pay your credit card bill off in full and add to your existing loan.

I listed down all our outgoing, and then I went through each one to see how I could cut down the amount. I am current changing mortgage insurance and saving 60 euros per month alone!!! Cut my esb bill by not using dryer!!! got alot more savvy food shopping etc. My husband smokes too, so good luck with that one and yes if she is not working, no need for creche. Have negociated a 1000 euro savings overall per month, so worthwhile exercise.

I so know the feeling of wanting to scream at her, and have worn myself out doing that, but maybe come to the realisation that she just couldnt cope. Your relationship is fine otherwise, so take control and get back on track. ( i have been told by our dr, that people respond in different ways under stress and one of them is avoidance!!).

I hope the mortgage company agree with your proposal. I presented mine with a detailed spreadsheet (due to 2 paycuts) and our outgoings, so it wasnt me just saying we are struggling, they could see for themselves.
I would look at your smaller loans and see if you can make cashflow savings there.

My husband told me to go and book a holiday and then I discovered he was up to his eyes in bills!!!! This post will be deleted if not edited immediately, I too dont understand his logic.

Not everyone is good with money, but Im sure with your practical nature (can see that from your post) that you will sort it.

Best of luck.
Cazmayo

Wow, that's some story. Sounds like you should be able to get it under control though. Joint account is a very good idea, allows more control over "House" only costs.

I must admit, my first reaction on reading your post was hand-on-the-mouth-oh-my-God-gobsmacked. It reminds me of a situation a friend of mine found himself in when he had services cut off to the house because they hadn't been paid, although he had been assured repeatedly that they were all in hand. Unfortunately that case too had a pattern to it. I doubt anyone could blame you for being upset with her and it is more to your credit that you are taking the responsibility to sort it out, rather than ranting. Such a shame she didn't trust you enough to come to you earlier - but maybe she'd been frightened by your previous threat if it happened again.

You are doing all the right things, you have examined your outgoings, looked for potential savings and identified an amount that you can afford to overpay to clear the arrears. As you have eight payments (I'm assuming monthly) left on the car, and perhaps she has similar, I would suggest telling the bank that you will be able to increase your repayments by a certain amount in eight months time - you even have evidence of why you can confidently state that. If possible though, I wouldn't divert the whole of that repayment to clearing the arrears, I'd use some to clear the more expensive debt more quickly. Which will, naturally, free up more money to be diverted to paying off the arrears.

I'd agree with other posters, you live together, so household expenses should be pooled not divided.

One thing you do need is her support, she may not have been extravagant, just foolish but she needs to make some sacrifices in her personal expenditure to help clear this. You both will have to probably, but - and this isn't a dig at your girlfriend, just a wearied observance - chances are she spends thoughtlessly. I'd not be surprised if she bought say shoes in preference to paying her mortgage. It seems an alien mindset (certainly to me) but it is common enough and not confined to the "Carrie Bradshaw's" of this world. Transitory wants dressed up as needs taking precedence over basics.

Good luck, with your level head you will soon make a dent in the arrears.

I hate to ask this but...

Is there any chance she has other loans and credit cards you don't know about ?

You say you have a good relationship and I dare say you love her to bits. I'm sure she's v distressed at the moment even though she might not be showing it. You need to take control of the finances as your gf clearly cant cope with money. You may have to shoulder part of the blame as you are the higher earner and should have taken the lead. That said no-one has died and this is only money.....20k arrears you will be able to clear and to put it in perspective just look at how much house price have dropped....what's another 20k!! Good luck and take it easy on her.....deal with people in debt everyday of the week and often told by debtors that they are terrified of the other one leaving if the extent of the debt becomes known!!! That might be where her problem begins and ends.

Thank you everyone for your comments and advice.

Many of you suggest a joint account but I think for the moment I am just going to take control of everything full stop! That's what she says she wants too. I do and will have her support in this and we will each have to make sacrifices but what really annoys me is that the kids are going to lose out too.

As I already look after services etc. they are all up to date and it's only the mortgage and her personal loans that are the issue. I'm not certain what state her personal loans are in but we'll have a long chat Tuesday night and try and get everything out in the open. If she doesn't come clean with me now we have no hope and I'll make sure to make that clear to her.

It's amazing when you sit down and write everything down how many easy cutbacks you can make. We'd normally sit down with the kids one night a weekend to watch a film and order in a Dominos or something which is probably €40-€50 a shot. That's at least €160 a month we can save by popping down to the shop and buying one instead. She probably spends €100 a month on glossy magazines, wine, treats, nails etc. and they can all go. She got us into this so it's only fair . I don't really have any 'vices' as such anyway to cut back on (except smokes of course).

I think what I will do for now is offer the ICS an overpayment of €300/month + the TRS (€100) increasing to €500+TRS a month in February when my car is paid off. Do you think this is enough? I could probably offer more but I want to try and make it easily achievable rather than out stretch us too much.

Also the solicitor.. is one really necessary? The guy in ICS said my proposal would be taken more serious if it came from a solicitor but it's an expense we can do without at the moment. I can send them my bank statements etc which show I have never been in arrears or even missed a DD with any of my own personal finances.

Maybe this new found 'penny pinching' will benefit us in the long run. Who knows.

Another dilemma I find myself in is whether to to tell my folks or not. They are not what you would call well off but they'd certainly have the money and would certainly happily give it to me if it were a matter of life and death, but it isn't and I'd prefer to keep that option for a day that it is. They already gave us €10K when we bought the house as a gift. She has pleaded with me not to tell them as she gets on very well with them and doesn't want to risk that but I don't want to find myself in a situation in a few months were I have to tell them and then I end up kind of similar to where she is now with "why on earth didn't you tell us when you first got in trouble". Although I think I am leaning towards not telling them. I'm 34 and it's not really something I want to admit to my folks anyway. I am insisting though that she tell her mam. When her mam hears things like summer camp has been canceled etc. I want her to know why. Not because I want to punish my GF but because I don't want to be getting the blame. Am I right to do this?

Thank you again everyone for your comments and especially your advice.

An approach that can be helpful is to detail your outgoings on a monthly basis and look at your minimum income on the other side.

Divide the amount by 4 and you have to live within this.

Sone of the bills will be every couple of months and these need to be allowed for as well as annual bils.

Live strictly within the ammount you set yourself. This will give you a target and to achieve this you can make some of the cuts that you were talking about.

Best of luck on Tuesday evening and remember that as a previous poster said it just spiraled out of control for your GF.

The bank won't want another house, and I think if you go with any reasonable proposal to the bank and keep to it you should be OK.

callaghanj said:

You may have to shoulder part of the blame...

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I totally agree. The more I look at her earnings towards her spending I can now see there was no way she could have been meeting the payments and I must have been completely blind not to have seen it before now. So yes, I am to blame for this mess too. And as I said in my OP, and I'm not saying this mess is at all their fault, but ICS had my work number. If at any time since Oct '07 they had contacted me this would never have happened.

callaghanj said:

Good luck and take it easy on her.....deal with people in debt everyday of the week and often told by debtors that they are terrified of the other one leaving if the extent of the debt becomes known!!! That might be where her problem begins and ends.

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She has told me this is the main reason for not telling me. I had threatened the first time that if it happened again and she hid it from me I'd walk. This 'advice' didn't have the desired effect though .

I dont think there is any need for either parents to know. You are both adults and as you got yourself in to this pickle i think you should be able to get yourselves out of it....why pass the burden and worry on to them??? Simply no need for it. Also I dont think you should cancel summer camps etc. Work out a payment proposal that is realistic but one that wont make the kids suffer. Dont feel obliged to give every cent to the bank as I'm sure they will be satified with the mortgage being paid and the arrears gradually reducing.. One thing I would do though is to make a full month's mortgage payment to the bank this week. Also speak to the bank's solicitors direct, you should be able to do it without a solicitor of your own....though if it's going back to court make sure you're legally represented.

I'd be inclined to agree with callaghanj and say probably detail your proposal without the involvement of your solicitor. You have worked out what you can and can't afford. You are proposing an initial position you can afford and then an improved position in a fixed time period with a clear reason and evidence as to why you can increase the repayment. The only concern I would have is your earlier reference to "civic order or repossession order". I think you need to examine that document and find out exactly what it is. On looking at that you may find it more prudent to engage a solicitor if they have already started repossession against you.

I think it is too early to "call in the cavalry" and tell your parents, start with the repayment plan first and once that is agreed and in place you can then consider whether it would be better to tell them, at least then you will be in full control of what the plan of attack is and be able to give them the comfort to know you are handling it. They will probably still offer but you will be in a better position to say thanks but no thanks. It is a big ask. However, the picture may change when you examine that document, it may turn out that you need a more sizeable cash injection in order to stave off repossession - again you will only know this once you have presented a repayment plan to your mortgage provider and got their reaction. I would say the same about telling your girlfriend's mother also. The sacrifices have to be made in some way shape or form and they will be noticed. I'd also suggest that you tell each set of parents together rather than dividing the tasks between you, that way it will ease a little concerns they may have about how this is affecting your relationship and ultimately their grandchildren. They may offer to help with specific expenses related to their grandchildren and that may be more beneficial to accept, at least then you aren't asking them to bail you out and they will feel that they are contributing something valuable.

so-crates said:

The only concern I would have is your earlier reference to "civic order or repossession order". I think you need to examine that document and find out exactly what it is. On looking at that you may find it more prudent to engage a solicitor if they have already started repossession against you.

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The person I am dealing with in ICS did say that he could put a halt to this. He is also forwarding me a copy of all previous correspondence so I'll know more when I see that and after I talk to him again on Tuesday. I'll post the outcome of that then.

Totally agree with so-crate wait untill you know exacetly what is going on with the house before you decide to ask them for help.

If you dont need them to loan you money i wouldn't tell them at all.

Going to side with you gf a little bit here..... yes she could of told you. But is it obvious that she loves you and never meant to do this. And if i were in her shoes and you had told me before that if anything ever happened like this again you would up and leave i doubt i would of told you either. Yes she is crap when it comes to dealing with money and paying bills, the first time this happened everything should of started coming out of your account.

She is ovbiously very embarressed about the situation which is why she peaded with you not to tell either parents.

At the end of the day yes she kept it too herself and your in a bit of a mess now, but hopefully you can talk to the banks and come to an arrangment and sort everything out. And you can prevent anything like this happening again.

When you speak to her you also need to find out if she has any other loans anywhere, she might not want you tell you about these incase you do leave her so assure her this wont happen.

I know it's a said as a bit of a joke sometimes about how much women love shopping but sometimes there can be an addiction or an underlying problem. Since she hasn't been paying the mortage what has she been spending all this money on? 20k is a lot of money.

You need to set up a joint household account in both your names and both put money in there. From this accout all mortgage, bills etc should be paid. Keep some spending money of your own in your own accounts and siphon the rest into the 'household' account and set it up on online banking. That means everything is visible to everyone.
Food, kids treats, pizzas etc should all come out of this. I can't understand how you can blame your girlfriend for the 1,500 euro spend on doing up the living room - had you no say in it at all?? Did you do all the food shopping solely from your own account? Surely she must have been doing food shops at the supermarket, buying kids clothes and shoes from her own account as well, unless she had a card from your current account? Doubt she spend it all on nails and magazines.
It just sounds like there was haphazard spending from both accounts going on, and it suited both of you to keep your financial affairs to yourselves.
Try the Allen Carr book to give up smoking, worked for me and I am off them 10yrs. You can smoke all the way through it till you feel ready.

I wouldn't dream of telling either sets of parents. While I dont mean to sound unsympathetic I believe this is totally your own busines and should not be discussed with anyone. Everyone makes mistakes and hopefully learns from them.
The relationship between both of you and both sets of parents appears to be good so I wouldn't risk any damage to that.

The time is now for getting everything out in the open. Perhaps you will find that this is a relief to her that she no longer has to live the lie and you can move on together with your new plan

Good luck to both of you

On a completely different note it strikes me as a lot of money/ debt to burden yourself with for a girlfriend. Make sure you are legally protected and that if things go belly up she doesn't take half when you've paid it all. Sorry for being so unromantic but she hasn't shown herself to be particularly trustworthy.

samanthajane said:

Going to side with you gf a little bit here..... yes she could of told you. But is it obvious that she loves you and never meant to do this. And if i were in her shoes and you had told me before that if anything ever happened like this again you would up and leave i doubt i would of told you either. Yes she is crap when it comes to dealing with money and paying bills, the first time this happened everything should of started coming out of your account.

She is ovbiously very embarressed about the situation which is why she peaded with you not to tell either parents.

At the end of the day yes she kept it too herself and your in a bit of a mess now, but hopefully you can talk to the banks and come to an arrangment and sort everything out. And you can prevent anything like this happening again.

When you speak to her you also need to find out if she has any other loans anywhere, she might not want you tell you about these incase you do leave her so assure her this wont happen.

I know it's a said as a bit of a joke sometimes about how much women love shopping but sometimes there can be an addiction or an underlying problem. Since she hasn't been paying the mortage what has she been spending all this money on? 20k is a lot of money.

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Okay, I am going to be a bit harsh but here goes, gambling and drug addictions are usually marked early on by being secretive (btw OP, I am NOT saying your gf is in trouble in either of these ways - I am simply drawing a comparison). People avoid letting others know what is going on because they fear other people's disapprobation and censure. Overspend is marked by similar habits of secrecy. At some level they know what they are doing is wrong and that others will disapprove so they seek to hide that behaviour, deny the problem and "manage" people around them to allow them to either try to sort out the problem alone or to continue indulging in it (while perhaps convincing themselves that they want to work it out alone and not involve others).
Secrecy allows perpetuation of problems because the checks that other people can place on our behaviour by their disapproval can be eluded by keeping others ignorant. It is embarrassing for her and since it could be interpreted as being evidence of not being able to cope or being reckless by both sets of parents it will be humiliating for her to be in the position where she is forced into disclosure (but not quite so humiliating as it would have been for the OP to find himself in court - assuming he was told! - arguing against a repossession). Also it may turn out that this has happened before now, that perhaps her parents had to help her out of a financial situation and this may come out in public which would expose her to her bf which would be as bad, in her eyes. However, as the OP pointed out there could be questions asked as you will have to cut back and say no to things you would otherwise have bought. You could conceivably use the recession as an excuse (every cloud and all that!) but although it is harder, being honest may in the long run be more beneficial for both partners. Start with a lie and you have to keep it up, secrecy then extends its hold.
It is a harsh position to hold but I do think that someone has to suffer the consequences of their actions. In this situation, parties to this who are completely innocent of all misbehaviour will have to pay the price of it. The children will have to give up some of their treats, the bf will have to cut his discretionary spend. It isn't retributive for her to shoulder the blame in public (in effect). I'd argue that it is adult for her to do so. Something else, and this is being suspicious but I have heard of it, it prevents the possibility of either set of parents becoming unwittingly involved behind the OPs back by her borrowing from them directly.