Non Principal Private Residence Tax - Late Payment Extortion

[Brendan Burgess]

I think Tommy's suggestion of the Ombudsman might be the most practical approach.

Or get a big group together to fund a High Court challenge.

 

[jdpl28]

Following up on this - further research suggests that the management agent may indeed be liable for this charge:

Check out:
[broken link removed]

and:


Anyone with any opinions on this?

 

[dermotneary]

Dermot Neary

I have heard of one case where a UK resident sought the assistance of their local elected representative who discovered that it was contrary to EU law to apply interest and penalties to a person not living in Ireland where they had not been issued with a demand for same.
The person in question was interviewed on a local radio station last year but I have been unable to get further details.

 

[Luternau]

Following up on this - further research suggests that the management agent may indeed be liable for this charge:

Check out:
[broken link removed]

and:


Anyone with any opinions on this?

There is a big reliance on the word 'may'. It does not seem clear cut from that information that they would be liable to pay it-just that they could pay it and then with hold that amount from rents received.
Clearly the agent should have told you about this charge via a monthly statement or letter. Have you tried to raise the matter with them?

 

[jdpl28]

Hi Dermot - I would very much like to hear more about that if you could find any further information on that case. Thank you for bringing it up.

Hi Luthernau - I have brought up the issue with the agent - expressed my concerns on her lack of good service and mentioned she should think about notifying other land-lords of their liabilities regarding this tax considering how much they would rake up in fines if left unpaid. She replied, told me she 'wouldn't dream of interfering with a customers tax business', accused me of smearing her name and her business, and promptly told me she did not want to do any further business with me. I am still waiting for 1 months rent and the tenants deposit. Its been a month already. So I've got hit on the double basically with this lack of payment and the original tax. I agree I should not have said all what I said, but I was so shocked when i realised that I had a fine of 2.2k to pay out I likely was a little less than subtle. However - it doesn't dispose of her responsibility to pay me monies owed. She probably knows well that its not worth me bringing her to court for the amount owed.... (about 1800)...

 

[Karloh]

Upon suggestion by the ombudsman I've tried the letter/cheque for full settlement approach. It was rejected by DCC and cheque returned.

I've now requested the ombudsman takes up the case. I've sent them the details and they are considering whether to take it up. They have been back to me with various questions regarding my tax returns in Ireland etc. I'll post again when I hear back.

Incidentally for those who don't believe people could be unaware if the tax this is clearly not the case. While there may have been some talk of the tax in Ireland, it certainly didn't reach me - unlike the LPT which was heavily publicized. I suspect the fact that it was local council managed mean that all standard notifications were bypassed.

 

[Luternau]

Incidentally for those who don't believe people could be unaware if the tax this is clearly not the case. While there may have been some talk of the tax in Ireland, it certainly didn't reach me - unlike the RPT which was heavily publicized. I suspect the fact that it was local council managed mean that all standard notifications were bypassed.

This is not true-it was heavily advertised on a national scale and it was not left to each council to do their own thing. The charge was a self declare-no letters issued to any owners and there was/is no liability on the Revenue or Council to advertise this outside of Ireland. All online versions of Irish newspapers had copy on it - so the information was out there to read no matter where you were.

I do agree that the penalties for non payment are excessively punative and I wonder how they can impose a heavier penalty on the NPPR than non payment of income tax etc.

 

[mrissue]

statute of limitations

when will this charge become statute barred under the
statute of limitations or will it ever

 

[Time]

They attach it to the property so it never goes barred.

 

[danash]

They attach it to the property so it never goes barred.

I am selling an investment property and the first questions my solicitor asked was about the NPPR and the former Household charge. She needed up to date documentation that all was paid up before issuing contracts so it does not go away.

I was up to date however.....some of my friends have falllen for this as well and have bills approaching 3K.

 

[dermotneary]

Dermot Neary

Hi Dermot - I would very much like to hear more about that if you could find any further information on that case. Thank you for bringing it up

It was a weekday Ocean FM morning show (after 9am) from this time last year (maybe Monday/Tuesday, August 27th/28th or 20th/21st 2012) and featured a lady from the UK who owned a house in Ireland and had enlisted the help of her local MEP to avoid having to pay late fees.

I contacted the station to see if they would be able to put me in touch with the caller or pass on my contact details but no joy and unfortunately the program wasn't available on podcast.

 

[Karloh]

I got a reply from the Ombudsman, effectively saying they sympathized, but that the could only intervene with regards to the administration of the tax, and not on the rights/wrongs of the tax itself or the penalties, which were legislation and outside their remit. I then got on to the Dublin city manager, and got another PFO from them.

Luternau - what I meant by bypassed is that The Revenue Commissioners have a set if standard notification mechanisms through which the communicate with taxpayers. I don't believe DCC have these same channels and so a media campaign was executed instad. It may have been comprehensive, but I read the Irish Times every day online, and I certainly didn't see it.

Anyway, I've already paid the charge/fine, so I'm probably going to let it drop at this stage. But the extortionate/disproportionate penalty leaves a very bad taste - as it does for all the emigrants who missed it, rightly or wrongly.

 

[Luternau]

I read the Irish Times every day online, and I certainly didn't see it.

As I said, I disagree with the penalties etc.

I read papers online too and I can assure you, this was front/home page news for a long time.

At least its paid now-so its sorted for you.

 

[Karloh]

Well maybe you're right. I'm not sure how I missed it - I must have been offline for that period, which is not entirely impossible. Googling the tax brings up much more content on the Late Payment Trap than original articles / promotion of the tax though. I've also just discovered that a number ouf Councils, including Galway, communicated by letter to all those suspected of being liable, using the data from the Private Residential Tenancies Board.

I've now sent Freedom of Information request to both DCC and the Dept of the Environment requesting details of the advertising campaigns along with details of any other deliberations relating to emigrants/overseas residents - communications to as well as regarding late payment fees.

Like I said, I'm lucky enough to have been in a position to pay the tax, but I think the whole thing is a gross breach of the contract between government and governed and should be challenged in whatever way possible.

 

[Bronte]

I've now sent Freedom of Information request to both DCC and the Dept of the Environment requesting details of the advertising campaigns along with details of any other deliberations relating to emigrants/overseas residents - communications to as well as regarding late payment fees.

While I sympathise with your predicament at the end of the day it's your responsibility to be up to date with all your obligations as a property owner. The letting agent is not at fault on this, but I'd certainly say your accountant should have informed you. From now on annually make sure you ask him is there anything else you have to pay. There is also a landlord thread on here and there is another website called irishlandlords.ie that might be helpful.

I agree that the fines are disproportionate. In addition to the NPPR, there was the household charge and now the new property tax. Water charges will be coming down the track. A new broadcasting tax, instead of the TV licence, but I imagine that will apply to the tenants. The PRTB registration is really important. Keep an eye for information here on AAM as we debate all the new taxes all the time.

 

[T McGibney]

The letting agent is not at fault on this, but I'd certainly say your accountant should have informed you. From now on annually make sure you ask him is there anything else you have to pay.

Hi B,

It would be utterly unrealistic to expect an accountant, who is hired essentially to prepare a tax return in the same way as a garage is hired to service a car, to micro manage a substantial number of clients' wider statutory compliance obligations unless they are charging a premium fee that will cover all the extra work that this entails.

Would you expect an accountant to monitor your compliance with BER certs? Planning permission conditions? TV licences? Dog licences? If so, how much would you be willing to pay for all this?

Why, in this instance do you say that the letting agent has no responsibility, but the accountant has? Do you include their solicitor, bank or insurer in this? If not, why not?

 

[Bronte]

Hi Tommy,

No of couse I wouldn't expect an accountant to do all those things, but taxes are accountant's business. What my accountant does is insist we have a once a year meeting when I go to Ireland and we run through and discuss everything. But I'd be fairly well up on most things. I think a simple list of all the possible taxes and charges on an A4 sheet might be helpful for everybody. Especially for clients that live abroad. And maybe a link to websites like AAM.

Remember the dreaded PRTB registrations, which I nearly got caught out on myself, I had to inform Irish residents who are landlords about that as despite all the publicity people didn't know anything about it.

In relation to lettting agents or estate agents. As you probably know I wouldn't rely on them to collect rent never mind inform me of any obligations I might have as a landlord.

At the end of the day though, accountant or not, the buck will stop with me.

You can get your assistant to draft up a list, should take about half an hour, your clients will love you ! (Can't find the smiley button)

You know the list you made about dog licences or BER, they don't matter, because, there are no penalties.

 

[T McGibney]

Hi B

We do make every effort to tell our clients about developments and to keep them informed as best we can, hence one key reason why I have a blog, but we cannot and do not guarantee that this will cover everything, and its up to everyone to ensure that their own house is in order.

This is largely because the pace & scale of new regulations is mindblowing.

For example, I was shocked to learn this on Twitter late Saturday night:

Frank Fitzgibbon ‏@FrankSunTimes 31 Aug

ST News: Did you know that it has been illegal to put food in the black bin since last February? Me neither. That'll be a €4,000 fine please
Expand

Frank Fitzgibbon ‏@FrankSunTimes 31 Aug

That food ban presently applies in every Irish city and towns over 25,000. Nationwide by July 2016 anywhere with pop in excess of 500
Expand

https://twitter.com/FrankSunTimes

There is no way any accountant could ever hope to keep all clients abreast of all such new laws & penalties, although there is enough there to give us all a decent living if only people would pay us for it

 

[Bronte]

, but we cannot and do not guarantee that this will cover everything, and its up to everyone to ensure that their own house is in order.

Agreed.

Sounds like you need a debt collector to get your bills paid, maybe get them to pay by instalment, my uncle, a gentle man, used to go out to farmers etc to get the bills paid, if you make it a reasonable amount people can deal with that and treat them kindly.

Are you not informed if the rules on bins change? Where I am if you put something in wrong you get a big red sticker with a warning on your wrong bag/bin. And they don't collect it. After that it's a big fine.

 

[T McGibney]

Sounds like you need a debt collector to get your bills paid, maybe get them to pay by instalment, my uncle, a gentle man, used to go out to farmers etc to get the bills paid, if you make it a reasonable amount people can deal with that and treat them kindly.

Hi B,
That isn't my point really, and I'm not complaining at all about my own situation, happy enough all round and luckier than most, my point really is that its impossible for accountants to keep up with, let alone assume responsibility for, the vast torrent of non-tax regulation affecting households and businesses in this country.

There is maybe an opening for businesses offering "compliance monitoring" services but the sheer volume of regulation means that it would be impossible for any existing business to offer such services as a add-on to their existing services unless they were able to command significant extra fees for doing so.