Noel Grealish and the Nigerian Remittances

[cremeegg]

Ireland is fortunate that far right politics have made little progress with the electorate, unlike so many other countries.

When Independent TD Noel Grealish said that Africans arriving into Ireland were economic migrants “sponging off the system”, he was widely condemned for that remark. see https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cri...ge-calls-for-hate-crime-legislation-1.4051632

And rightly so in my opinion.

For some weeks Mr Grealish made no further comments and avoided all media interviews.

Then this

During Leaders’ Questions in the Dáil on Tuesday the Galway West TD said a “staggering” amount of money had been transferred with the largest amounts going to Lithuania (€843 million), France (€1 billion), Poland (€1.54 billion), UK (€2.7 billion) and Nigeria (€3.54 billion). see https://www.irishtimes.com/news/pol...ions-in-remittances-sent-to-nigeria-1.4080735

This is an entirely different matter, rather than calling people names, he has produced factual information which on the face of it at least calls for further scrutiny.

The righteous left called him every name under the sun and accused him of racism, Miriam Lord mounted her high horse, academics appeared on morning ireland to complain of racism.

To my mind nothing will promote a far right politics in Ireland faster than name calling people who try to raise topics for discussion.

Either the level of remittances to Nigeria are hugely out of proportion to the Nigerian population and so a valid cause for further questioning, or perhaps they are not. Either way shutting down the question with name calling is a disaster.

Dr Ebun Joseph, a lecturer in black studies in UCD, said Mr Grealish was effectively saying that “black money” should be policed differently (On Morning Ireland). No, large scale unexplained flows of money should be investigated irrespective of the countries involved.

Then this morning Paschal Donoghue to the rescue. Galway TD said €3.5bn sent to country in five years but Donohoe says CSO figure is €17m a year.

This is how to deal with valid questions which have racial undertones, addressing them, not avoiding them, providing factual information not tut tutting.

If those who would like to see a far right politics develop in this country succeed, it will be with the IT and RTE fanning the flames. We have a lot to be grateful for in Fine Gael politics this morning.

 

[Delboy]

Then this morning Paschal Donoghue to the rescue. Galway TD said €3.5bn sent to country in five years but Donohoe says CSO figure is €17m a year.

This is how to deal with valid questions which have racial undertones, addressing them, not avoiding them, providing factual information not tut tutting.

If those who would like to see a far right politics develop in this country succeed, it will be with the IT and RTE fanning the flames. We have a lot to be grateful for in Fine Gael politics this morning.

Stall the ball there just one minute!
Who is to say the CSO is right and the World Bank is wrong because that's the route you and FG have taken?

From commentary I've seen this morning, the CSO info is based on modelling around average earnings, population etc.
The World Bank is based on remittance estimates received from Govt's of the countries in question, adjusted by the WB.

You takes your picks....

 

[dereko1969]

Deputy Grealish had no issue with the levels of remittance to other EU countries, only with those to Nigeria. Those WB figures have been called out many years ago as highly speculative, I'd trust the CSO a lot more than the WB figures.
Also @cremeegg you're being a bit selective in your quoting of Miriam Lord, she stated the facts that Grealish has said feck all about anything non-Galway related (when he bothers to show up or vote) so this comment, following so quickly from his "spongers" comment that was also directed at African refugees is worthy of comment. If it walks like a duck, comments like a duck.....

 

[cremeegg]

Stall the ball there just one minute!
Who is to say the CSO is right and the World Bank is wrong because that's the route you and FG have taken?

I am not saying that the CSO is right and the WB wrong.

I am saying that the way to respond to deputy Grealish's questions is with facts and not name calling.

Paschal Donoghue provided a fact, that the CSO says the figure is €17m a year. That is a far better response than calling people names.

There is obviously a huge discrepancy between €3.54 billion and €17 million, and I look forward to further information coming to light to clarify that.

 

[WolfeTone]

Then this morning Paschal Donoghue to the rescue. Galway TD said €3.5bn sent to country in five years but Donohoe says CSO figure is €17m a year.

I agree its important to establish the facts. The CSO state a population of some 18,000 Nigerians in Ireland.
That would equate to €39,000 per Nigerian, per year, being sent out of the country for the last five years using Grealish's figures.
It may be possible that he came across some data and grossly misinterpreted - which begs the question, does he do any scrutiny before bringing this stuff to the floor of our parliament? Does he consider that others may have more pressing matters for the Taoiseach to deal with rather than unsubstantiated data?

He is either grossly incompetent or trying to rabble rouse an underbelly of racists.

I disagree about promoting the far-right through name calling. Its outlandish statements like Grealish's that the racists want to hear. It speaks truth to them, convinces them that they are right and that they now have a voice. It becomes unifying, and in turn presents itself in real terms throughout society.
Best someone verifies the figures first, and then hold out his performance for ridicule.

 

[cremeegg]

Also @cremeegg you're being a bit selective in your quoting of Miriam Lord, she stated the facts that Grealish has said feck all about anything non-Galway related (when he bothers to show up or vote) so this comment, following so quickly from his "spongers" comment that was also directed at African refugees is worthy of comment. If it walks like a duck, comments like a duck.....

My point is that in dealing with issues which have racial undertones, name calling is counterproductive.

When Noel Grealish said Africans arriving into Ireland were economic migrants “sponging off the system”, this was rightly condemned as racist.

However when he raised a question which on the face of it seems valid, the appropriate response is to address the issues raised rather than question his motivation. He may well have an ulterior motive in raising the question, that does not invalidate the question.

What may well invalidate the question is the use of incorrect World Bank figures, if they do prove to be incorrect.

Name calling is counterproductive. There are plenty of people in this country who are suspicious of immigrants, when they see what appears to be a legitimate question being raised and the questioner shot down by name calling, that tends to reinforce their suspicions.

 

[cremeegg]

I dont understand your point in post 5 above.

That would equate to €39,000 per Nigerian, per year, being sent out of the country for the last five years using Grealish's figures.

Yes, so either there is some large scale, probably Europe wide, illegal activity going on with the profits being channelled through Ireland, (Grealish didn't say this but it is inescapable if his figures are correct)

or

Noel Grealish's and the World Bank's figures are completely incorrect.

I would like to know which it is.

It may well be that Noel Grealish is just trying to draw attention to himself, but he is an elected member of Dail Eireann and even if the World Bank figures are incorrect he didn't make them up. (note Michael Noonan queried simile WB figures when he was minister of Finance).

By shouting Grealish down, it will convince those who are suspicious of immigrants, that there is something being hidden.

 

[Sunny]

I believe the figures....Surely everyone has sent some money to the Nigerian Prince we can all help him access his funds and share the wealth.....I am hoping it will be before Christmas...…. They told me that we are very near.....

Grealish belongs in the same camp as Gemma O'Doherty…….None of them deserve a public platform or to have their views discussed....

 

[Purple]

Stall the ball there just one minute!
Who is to say the CSO is right and the World Bank is wrong because that's the route you and FG have taken?

From commentary I've seen this morning, the CSO info is based on modelling around average earnings, population etc.
The World Bank is based on remittance estimates received from Govt's of the countries in question, adjusted by the WB.

You takes your picks....

The wider point that Cremeegg is making is that there is a habit of attacking the person before you listen to the specifics of the point they are making. It's a sort of crackdown on free speech by people who, ironically, consider themselves liberal.

 

[Purple]

Name calling is counterproductive. There are plenty of people in this country who are suspicious of immigrants, when they see what appears to be a legitimate question being raised and the questioner shot down by name calling, that tends to reinforce their suspicions.

Exactly. If people are racist then calling the people they agree with racist won't changer their views. It will just reinforce their sense of injustice. Calling out statements which are factually incorrect is the way to go.
Hopefully then the good Deputy will be satisfied.

 

[WolfeTone]

either there is some large scale, probably Europe wide, illegal activity going on with the profits being channelled through Ireland, (Grealish didn't say this but it is inescapable if his figures are correct)

Perhaps, but I assumed it was related to income generated in Ireland?
In any case, keeping my political correctness hat on, I dont expect by any substantive measure that Nigerians are prone to anymore or less criminal activity than Irish people? They also work, educate etc and many have started families. Meaning the proportion of actual Nigerians involved in criminality is low. Meaning the figure of €39,000 would probably be forty fold per Nigerian, involved in criminality - if figures are true and a result of criminality.

Overall, its hard to imagine that these sums of money are being transferred on such a scale, for many years, without authorities not twigging something, somewhere? Its possible, but that is why deputy Grealish should use the resources of his office to investigate further before bringing speculative and unsubstantiated data before the floor of parliament.

 

[Purple]

Its possible, but that is why deputy Grealish should use the resources of his office to investigate further before bringing speculative and unsubstantiated data before the floor of parliament.

Very good point. I have no doubt that the Deputy is playing to his gallery but the point of the thread is that name calling is not the best way to counter such populist (perhaps racist) comments. Thankfully Pascal (I do like Pascal) did the right thing and stuck to the facts.

 

[odyssey06]

Fact Check in the Journal:

FactCheck: No, €3.5 billion was not sent to Nigeria by people living in Ireland over the past eight years

The claim was made by independent TD Noel Grealish in the Dáil yesterday.

www.thejournal.ie

Clarifies that Grealish's comments relate to the sum over 8 years, not per annum.
The Journal comes down on the side of the CSO figures being reliable, but without any real evidence of this in the scope of the article - just that the World Bank figures are estimates. I think the CSO figures are counting real data, but it seems very possible this is only a subset of the data.

 

[cremeegg]

Grealish belongs in the same camp as Gemma O'Doherty…….None of them deserve a public platform or to have their views discussed....

I utterly disagree with this.

Everyone is entitled is entitled to ask questions. Elected TDs particularly.

If they are shut down, people who were engaged by the question become disengaged from politics. Thats what fuels right wing extremism.

Noel Grealish may be talking nonsense, (a first in Irish politics ,) or he may have a point, to say he does not deserve a public platform is anti democratic. He was elected to the platform he has.

 

[Delboy]

Fact Check in the Journal:

FactCheck: No, €3.5 billion was not sent to Nigeria by people living in Ireland over the past eight years

The claim was made by independent TD Noel Grealish in the Dáil yesterday.

www.thejournal.ie

Clarifies that Grealish's comments relate to the sum over 8 years, not per annum.
The Journal comes down on the side of the CSO figures being reliable, but without any real evidence of this in the scope of the article - just that the World Bank figures are estimates. I think the CSO figures are counting real data, but it seems very possible this is only a subset of the data.

Of course The Journal come down on the side of the CSO figures which are much lower...wouldn't expect anything less from them.

The CSO figures are based on estimates of disposable income after living expenses and average wages etc. An academic exercise.
Who is correct, the CSO or World Bank? I have no idea. Both seem unreliable but the Left are going for the lower CSO figures and the Right for the World Bank. As would be expected and both sides such as The Journal are claiming their side is 100% correct.

 

[Sunny]

I utterly disagree with this.

Everyone is entitled is entitled to ask questions. Elected TDs particularly.

If they are shut down, people who were engaged by the question become disengaged from politics. Thats what fuels right wing extremism.

Noel Grealish may be talking nonsense, (a first in Irish politics ,) or he may have a point, to say he does not deserve a public platform is anti democratic. He was elected to the platform he has.

He asked the question a month ago in a parliamentary question. He received the answer which was the CSO figures. He went in to the Dail and then asked the question using world bank figures which were discredited. He knew exactly what he has doing. He was stirring racist bile and appealing to Same people who follow Gemma O'Doherty. If there was a doubt about the figures he should have made it clear. He didnt. He hasn't since. It was racist and it was an abuse of the dail. He represents everyone in his constituency including Nigerians and still stood there hinting that an entire country and people were guilty of money laundering or something. Ireland has seen billions returned here in the past few years. If a US Senator stood up and asked what the IRS were doing to investigate if this money was being used to fund the IRA, we would be outraged.

Grealish can hide behind his right to ask questions all he likes despite the fact that nobody is arguing against his right to ask questions. That is not the fact. He knew what he was doing. I knew what he doing. Nearly everyone knows what he was doing. Some people will support him just like they support Farrage, Trump etc etc but I will never be one of them.

 

[Ceist Beag]

Absolutely agree Sunny, 100%.
These were not the actions of a man concerned that there might be something untoward going on. These were the actions of a man abusing his privelege to cast aspersions on an entire nation. If he has legitimate concerns and has evidence to back that up, let him bring it to the authorities so that it can be dealt with in an appropriate and professional manner.
As you say, it was racist and it was an abuse of the dail.
Elected TDs are entitled to ask questions in the Dail - with that entitlement comes a responsibility (in fact an obligation) to use it properly, ethically and professionally.