New houses should not have to meet high BER requirements

[lff12]

If you extensively renovate the C1 house you are supposed to get it up to B2 standard which is a deterrent to upgrading older houses. It would seem more reasonable to insist that you go up X levels.

That doesn't mean its easier. The actual renovations necessary can vary widely even in homes considered low ratings, which is often due to something as simple as use of electric heating. The concern I would have is that we are railroading in technologies which will appear just as dated in 20 years time as oil fired central heating is now. What we should be focusing on is creating buildings that are built to last and modifiable, which is why timber framing is so popular elsewhere - if your beams rot on your 19th century Fachwerk home in Franconia, you replace the beam with an appropriate load bearing beam of similar type and take it from there.
What I do find strange here is our lack of appropriate use of basements, ground floor space and rooms under gable roofs, like I've seen in Germany, Luxembourg and Switzerland.

 

[Peanuts20]

What we need are well built timber frames houses. They'll last 100 years, can be mainly pre-fabricated in a factory so will be of a much higher quality, are considerably cheaper, have a much lower carbon footprint and can be produced faster. Unfortunately our existing building regulations and our incompetent construction sector mitigate against this. If builders were as good at building as they are at moaning we'd have no shortage of housing.

Yes, there was a systematic failure by the State to enforce regulations and by the so called professionals to ensure that standards were met. Even a desk-top audit would have shown that fire safety standards were not being met.
Thankfully most builders are honest people and did what they were meant to do, despite the failures of the State.

Glenveigh properties are planning on opening a new Timber Frame factory in Carlow on the site of the old Braun plant, they've also recently bought a timber frame company in wicklow so that may be the way some of the developers are going

 

[Purple]

Glenveigh properties are planning on opening a new Timber Frame factory in Carlow on the site of the old Braun plant, they've also recently bought a timber frame company in wicklow so that may be the way some of the developers are going

Yep, Glenveigh seem to be the benchmark for best practice. They are building an apartment block near me with a hording outlining that they are using 40% prefabricated parts, 100% recycled steel and the corresponding reduction in CO2 emissions.

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

What I do find strange here is our lack of appropriate use of basements, ground floor space and rooms under gable roofs, like I've seen in Germany, Luxembourg and Switzerland.

I've never understood this either

In the scheme of things excavation is not a huge additional cost and can get you potentially 30% more floor space. It's done for apartments so why not for houses?

Is there some reason why it's not done in Ireland for houses such as a higher water table? Or just builder conservatism?

 

[Purple]

I've never understood this either

In the scheme of things excavation is not a huge additional cost and can get you potentially 30% more floor space. It's done for apartments so why not for houses?

Is there some reason why it's not done in Ireland for houses such as a higher water table? Or just builder conservatism?

Putting a basement in an area with a high water table is expensive. It's not that it will leak, it's that it will want to float. Keeping it in the ground is the challenge.

 

[Clueless Clive]

And your point is?

What do you think the implications are. I thought the point was obvious

 

[noproblem]

What do you think the implications are. I thought the point was obvious

The implications of what exactly?
You pointed out that a lot of apartment blocks would have to be demolished. Can you give us the data on what you're saying, where the apartments are and how many blocks are to be brought down? You come across as having this knowledge, just want you to share the data.

 

[Purple]

What we should be focusing on is creating buildings that are built to last and modifiable, which is why timber framing is so popular elsewhere - if your beams rot on your 19th century Fachwerk home in Franconia, you replace the beam with an appropriate load bearing beam of similar type and take it from there.

And if the house does have to be replaced the cost and carbon footprint is considerably lower than building a block and concrete house.

 

[Purple]

Which is largely because we still haven't professionalised our construction workforce to the point that you can no longer leave school at 15, do a safe pass and rise through the ranks. Doing so would eliminate the cheap labour element while also improving standards, but at significant cost, as then you are trying to only hire professionally trained staff at entry level, but 55 year old Jimmy the ex brickie who left school at 15 to work on city building sites is now senior manager on account of "experience" and hasn't a bulls notion what all this new stuff is, but can talk the talk - and him, take a pay cut, with all his "experience"?

Why do you think a better trained workforce would be less likely to cut corners and be dishonest?
If the last boom taught us anything it was that people who present themselves as Professionals are no more honest than anyone else. As far as I know there's no ethics test required to become a QS, Engineer, solicitor, accountant or any other professional involved in the construction industry.

On the issue of training I always remember what the Dean of the Department of Mechanical Engineering in UCD said to me; "Never confuse education and qualification. Qualification is what you learn n four or five years in college, education is what you learn throughout your entire life."

What is needed for modernisation is serious amounts of money invested in a modern supply chain. That seems to be starting to happen.

 

[T McGibney]

Why do you think a better trained workforce would be less likely to cut corners and be dishonest?
If the last boom taught us anything it was that people who present themselves as Professionals are no more honest than anyone else. As far as I know there's no ethics test required to become a QS, Engineer, solicitor, accountant or any other professional involved in the construction industry.

Of course any chancer can call themselves an accountant (but not a solicitor) but it's utter nonsense to claim that there are no ethical standards in force for accredited members of either of those professions.

 

[The Horseman]

Why do you think a better trained workforce would be less likely to cut corners and be dishonest?
If the last boom taught us anything it was that people who present themselves as Professionals are no more honest than anyone else. As far as I know there's no ethics test required to become a QS, Engineer, solicitor, accountant or any other professional involved in the construction industry.

With the greatest respect don't tar a profession with the actions of a minority. For your info there are ethical tests for the accountancy profession. There are also sanctions both professionally and legally for unethical behaviour.

 

[Purple]

Of course any chancer can call themselves an accountant (but not a solicitor) but it's utter nonsense to claim that there are no ethical standards in force for accredited members of either of those professions.

Sure, but accountants and solicitors as a cohort are no more or less honest than plumbers or taxi drivers or anyone else.

Oh, and I've met more than my fair share of Solicitors who are chancers.

 

[Purple]

With the greatest respect don't tar a profession with the actions of a minority. For your info there are ethical tests for the accountancy profession. There are also sanctions both professionally and legally for unethical behaviour.

I'm not tarring them with anything. I'm pointing out that people are the same in every walk of life and take up one job rather than another doesn't confer some sort of ethical purity on that cohort of people.
I agree that there are regulated industries and sectors and that's a good thing but we've a long history of regulatory failure n this country.

 

[T McGibney]

Sure, but accountants and solicitors as a cohort are no more or less honest than plumbers or taxi drivers or anyone else.

Oh, and I've met more than my fair share of Solicitors who are chancers.

You complain about others' lack of ethics. In doing so, you make a fundamental error on a point of fact. You then opt to try to move the goalposts instead of admitting your error and putting it right. There's an irony there somewhere.

 

[Purple]

You complain about others' lack of ethics. In doing so, you make a fundamental error on a point of fact.

How so?
There are professional standards (ethics) that they are legally required to meet, just like in many jobs, but what ethics test to they have to pass?

As far as I know there's no ethics test required to become a QS, Engineer, solicitor, accountant or any other professional involved in the construction industry.

I don't mean ethics exam, I mean ethics test; a method of ensuring that they are in fact of a high moral and ethical calibre. If there is such a thing then I will of course admit my error.

 

[T McGibney]

How so?
There are professional standards (ethics) that they are legally required to meet, just like in many jobs, but what ethics test to they have to pass?

Look it up yourself. I don't have time to educate you on your errors.

I stand by my observation that it's ironic for you to bleat about others' lack of ethics while making assertions that you can't substantiate and then doubling down when exposed.

 

[Purple]

Look it up yourself. I don't have time to educate you on your errors.

I stand by my observation that it's ironic for you to bleat about others' ethics while making assertions that you can't substantiate.

I've looked. I couldn't find any.
I don't claim to have ethical standards that are any higher than anyone else. I certainly don't claim to have higher ethical standards due to the job I've chosen to do. I don't claim that those who also do the same job as me have higher ethical standards because we have all chosen to do this job.

My sister is a solicitor, as is my Partner. Neither of them were required to pass an ethics test or were filtered to ensure that they were "the right sort" prior to training in their chosen job.

Working in a heavily regulated industry, and mine is very heavily regulated, doesn't make one any more of less honest or ethical than the next guy. It just means one has to behave in a certain way or get in trouble.

Ethics and integrity is what one does when no one is looking.

 

[T McGibney]

I've looked. I couldn't find any.

You didn't look too hard.

IAASA - Ethical Standard for Auditors (Ireland)

www.iaasa.ie

Ethics - code and standards - ..rteredaccountants.ie

CPA Ireland - CPA Ireland Latest News 2019

News stories from Irish Accountancy body CPA Ireland in 2019

www.cpaireland.ie

https://www.lawsociety.ie/globalassets/documents/committees/conduct-guide.pdf

Code of Conduct - Law Library

The Code of Conduct for the Bar of Ireland sets out the rules by which barristers perform their work and operate within the courts and outside. It covers a multitude of details from relationships between parties, to duties in a criminal case, to registration of foreign lawyers and are the...

www.lawlibrary.ie

 

[Purple]

You didn't look too hard.

IAASA - Ethical Standard for Auditors (Ireland)

www.iaasa.ie

Ethics - code and standards - ..rteredaccountants.ie

CPA Ireland - CPA Ireland Latest News 2019

News stories from Irish Accountancy body CPA Ireland in 2019

www.cpaireland.ie

https://www.lawsociety.ie/globalassets/documents/committees/conduct-guide.pdf

Code of Conduct - Law Library

The Code of Conduct for the Bar of Ireland sets out the rules by which barristers perform their work and operate within the courts and outside. It covers a multitude of details from relationships between parties, to duties in a criminal case, to registration of foreign lawyers and are the...

www.lawlibrary.ie

You are misunderstanding the point.
You have linked to all the rules they are required to work within. That doesn't mean that as a cohort they are more ethical than anyone else. It means that they work within a heavily regulated industry.

I asked if there were any ethics tests that they had to pass in order to ensure that they were more ethical or honest than the rest of the population. There aren't, and heavy regulation doesn't mean that they are intrinsically any more honest or ethical than anyone else. That's the point I made above.

 

[T McGibney]

I asked if there were any ethics tests that they had to pass in order to ensure that they were more ethical or honest than the rest of the population. There aren't

You keep shifting the goalposts.

Your original claim was "As far as I know there's no ethics test required to become a QS, Engineer, solicitor, accountant or any other professional involved in the construction industry."

That, in respect of solicitors and accountants, is as I have said, utter nonsense. I've sent you multiple links which confirm that, if only you'd bother reading them.

Now you're going on about ethics tests ensuring that people are "more ethical or honest than the rest of the population" - which isn't the function of an ethics test.

You've lost here but you haven't the courage to admit it.