New entrants getting higher salary than existing staff.

[rainyday]

Re: salary negotiation and appraisal

If you are selling a house you'll take an offer from the highest bidder but you are of the opinion that it is somehow dishonourable to sell your labour to the highest bidder.

Hi Geoffrey - It would be very dangerous to take the same approach to selling your house & selling your labour. Once you have sold your house, you have no further relationship with the buyer.

Once you have sold your labour, you have a relationship with the 'buyer' your employer, for 8 hours a day, five days a week, 48 weeks of the year until you change jobs or retire. You need to manage ALL aspects of this relationship, not just the financial ones.

I don't think it is dishonourable to sell your labour to the highest bidder. I do think that it's a bit dumb to choose the 'highest bidder' solely on that basis. You need to take a holistic view of your employer, the atmosphere, the culture, their business stability etc etc. There is no point in getting a great salary for 4 months and then finding yourself on the dole if the company goes bust from over-paying their staff.

 

[XXXAnother PersonXXX]

Re: Pay rise

However, the difference here is that your career is not a game - the stakes are very high.

Well even that depends on the individual. I don't think a career (or rather working for a company, making other people rich) is such high stakes in the whole scheme of things. I would regard this as a minor risk. Each to their own I suppose.

If you walk into your boss with another job offer in your hand, your boss is never going to think about you the same way again.

Yeah, maybe your boss will stop thinking that you're a gullable fool!

When your boss is looking for a good candidate to promote, this will be a factor. When your boss is divvying up the 'bonus' budget, this will be a factor.

The squeeky wheel gets the oil. If you want something, ask for it. (This is even in the Bible!). If you don't get it, leave and find it elsewhere. Discontentment and negativity isn't going to do anyone any favours.

If you think you are underpaid, by all means, tell your boss & produce supporting evidence. If you want to leave & get another job, do so. But don't 'play the game' of bringing in the job offer just to get a salary increase.

Ireland is too small a world!

It's business! - Businesses do things like this every day. Businesses are there to make money, not give it away.

Why else would a manager give someone more money, unless they have to? (Maybe it's different in the civil service or 50s Ireland)

 

[rainyday]

Re: Pay rise

The squeeky wheel gets the oil. If you want something, ask for it. (This is even in the Bible!). If you don't get it, leave and find it elsewhere. Discontentment and negativity isn't going to do anyone any favours.

Hi AP - I absolutely agree with this, and I didn't post anything to the contrary. If you think you're worth more money, go and make your case for it.

But don't go in with a job offer in one hand and a smug smile on your face & expect your manager to throw a few grand at you. You just might get a nasty surprise.

 

[geoffreyod]

aren't you contradicting yourself.

You said earlier that if someone comes in to you looking for a salary increase based on what another company is willing to offer for their services that "When your boss is looking for a good candidate to promote, this will be a factor. When your boss is divvying up the 'bonus' budget, this will be a factor" - This is the basis of a very short hearing in favour of the employee with a rights commissioner.

Then you proceed to argue that in order to preserve your relationship with your employer you shouldn't be too forceful when negotiating for a salary increase.
Don't you think the relationship is soured by the employer refusing to pay a reasonable wage and de-motivated employees aren't productive employees?

Presenting an alternate tender for your services should never be considered as 'burning bridges'.

I only ever hear the 'pay is only a small factor of the whole package' arguement being pushed by companies who know they are paying less than the market average.

 

[rainyday]

Re: aren't you contradicting yourself.

Then you proceed to argue that in order to preserve your relationship with your employer you shouldn't be too forceful when negotiating for a salary increase.

No, I didn't Geoffrey - Please don't put words into my mouth. Be as forceful as you like.

The only recommendation I gave is that you don't walk into your boss with a 'better offer' in your hand, if what you really want is a better salary in current job.

If you want a better salary in your current job, go ask for it. If you want to move job, go off and get another offer. It's quite simple.

If you complicate it by getting other offers when you really want to stay in your current job, you are;

- pissing off the other employer, who has put a lot of time/effort into recruiting you
- pissing off your current employer too.

I've never heard of any 'rights commissioner' cases relating to this kind of scenario.

 

[ClubMan]

Re: aren't you contradicting yourself.

If you complicate it by getting other offers when you really want to stay in your current job, you are;

- pissing off the other employer, who has put a lot of time/effort into recruiting you
- pissing off your current employer too.

Perhaps - but sometimes that may be what it takes.

 

[XXXAnother PersonXXX]

Re: aren't you contradicting yourself.

Rainyday, are you a civil servant? (or maybe the taoiseach ?)

 

[rainyday]

Re: aren't you contradicting yourself.

Perhaps - but sometimes that may be what it takes

Yep, I realise that it's possible that this might be the right tactic in certain limited circumstances.

It might also be just what it takes to push the job-hunter out to a new employer that he/she didn't really want.

Rainyday, are you a civil servant? (or maybe the taoiseach

Neither, though some of my best friends are civil servants...

 

[Hawthorn]

I think I will walk.

My employer is one of the financial institutions and has plenty of money. I am often told that I am a great worker and that they are pleased with my work. In fact the assistant manager has stepped back from the day to day running of the office and usually asks me to let her know "how things are going". I now realise that I am her poorly paid assistant basically doing the job that she should be doing. Everyone says that I should stop taking on the extra responsibility as I am not getting paid for it. Unfortunately it is in my nature to keep things moving during the day.

 

[Publicly aware]

...

Hi Hawthorn

I can empathise, but from a different angle - despite what XXXAnother personXXX has to say about public servants. I work very hard at my job. I have had a number of managers actively seeking to have me on the staff. To be honest, I couldn't give a damn. Why? Because, I don't get any extra salary for a transfer. I don't get any extra salary for being recognised as a "great asset" to the workplace. Hey, I'm a public-sector employee! One manager has asked me 5 times to opt for his workplace this year already. I'm biding my time. I will do what is best for me personally while, at the same time, recognising that circumstances change very quickly in the public sector. I learned a long time ago that the most important thing is to be happy with your life outside work - everything else is incidental.

However, you're in the private sector. You shouldn't have to put up with this nonsense. Be assertive. Write down all the good points - all the things you have done in the last years(s). Re-read them. Tell yourself that you deserve to treated better. You're a person of great talent and you are being abused by your boss. I know that people will have more respect for you if you stand up for yourself. As long as your are willing to be a doormat, you will be taken advantage of by your manager.

Don't be a doormat for a weak and ineffective manager who is basically a bully.

You clearly deserve much better than this. When you have written down everything and rehearsed everything -have a chat with your boss. Be assertive. Do not go on the defensive. Inform her you want a salary review. Inform her that you intend to raise the matter at a higher level. This should definitely set her alarm bells running.

You know what you are worth - tell her or her boss!

Good luck

 

[XXXAnother PersonXXX]

Re: ...

One other point I'd like to throw in.

Anything that is agreed, whichever tactic you decide to use, get it in writing. Don't settle for 'Oh, we'll see in your next pay review' or 'The company is struggling at the moment, next year you'll get more money/promotion/company car'. Anything they offer should be implemented with immediate effect, or even better, backdated.

I think it pays (literally) to be cynical in a stituation like this. If it's talk, it's generally lies. Then again, I'm cynical about most things

Let us know how you get on. Pick a nice sunny day when everyone is in a good mood.

 

[zag]

Re: ...

I would opt for the say it out straight to your manager approach.

If I was in that situation, I would ask them (when they are busy) for some time to discuss something. This gives them advance warning that there is something important on your mind. It also partially reduces the risk of a huge big blow-up between the two of you if one of other of you gets annoyed during the discussion as you have both had time to think.

Then simply go along and say that you are not happy that the new recruits are on the same or higher salary level than you. Not happy at all.

Pause to let it sink in.

Then proceed to say that if the employer thinks the new people are worth that much and you have experience and are training them in to the positions you by definition are worth more than they are. If you were worth less than them would you be passing on your skills ?

Then ask what action they might take that would improve things. It *might* simply be the case that the employer has had to pay this much due to market forces and has simply neglected (perhaps on purpose) to increase your salary to reflect the market. Perhaps they are hoping you won't notice or mind. Let them know you have noticed and you do mind.

As above, get something concrete and in writing.

z

 

[tedd]

Re: ...

I agree with zag.

If you find it hard to have this sort of conversation, get someone you trust and do a "role play" with them. Tell them to ask you all the hard questions you're afraid of from your supervisor. You would be amazed at the edge this will give ou when you are in the real situation.

tedd