Neutrality

[cremeegg]

Wellington never said that. In fact he was proud of his Irishness. It was said about him by Parnell, who hated Wellington's guts.

After saying I try not to discuss Irish history here goes another exception. I justify it by saying I am learning something I didn't know.

It seems it was O Connell who said it about him, according to the IT that repository of all truth. https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/a-bit-of-welly-the-iron-duke-s-irishness-1.1546456

I hadn't realised that it was said about him rather than something he said himself.

However he does illustrate the point that he was of a class who, despite generations in Ireland still sent their sons to school in England.

You say he was proud of his Irishness, have you any reference as to that or what it meant to him to be Irish.

 

[Itchy]

The Russian invasion of Ukraine was utterly unjustifiable. Resorting to war to settle political differences is wrong.

That’s the principle. Russia has resorted to war. Now what for Ukraine?

 

[cremeegg]

So for them it was a strategic choice not a moral one.

You said that the moral choice was to not to have anything to do with warmongers. Is there a moral aspect to neutrality and if so what is it?

Talking about military neutrality of course there is a moral aspect. The major powers in the world often seek to advance their interests by war. While at any point in time one power or another may be more actively engaged in that, no one power has a monopoly on unjustified invasion. This is immoral and we should not allow ourselves to be sucked into one side or the other just because they are on the side of right this time.

Ukraine has been the victim of aggression on this occasion, I am glad we are doing more to assist them than we did for the people of Iraq.

Looking after the interests of the country is also a moral responsibility of the state, indeed I believe it is its first responsibility, and I believe staying out of foreign military engagement is an important aspect of that.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

On the contrary I see those who want us to spend money on military equipment which will never be used as the virtue signallers in this debate.

Lots of photo ops for Charlie Flanagan to don a green jacket and be photographed on a tank. Effective use against any actual threat nil.

Yes that would stick in my craw as well. The fact that you see this as on the contrary rather than in parallel with those who carry wear their neutrality pacifist halo suggests that you may be lacking a tad of neutrality yourself.

What a short memory you must have.

Let me introduce you to a man who lied to the UN Security Council to start a war,

Colin Powell’s UN speech: a decisive moment in undermining US credibility

Analysis: His security council presentation didn’t directly lead to the Iraq invasion – but it was a turning point in US-UN relations

www.theguardian.com

A war which lead to death and destruction on a much greater scale than anything we have seen in Ukraine to date.

Recent estimates (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63580372 and https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2022/10/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-31-october-2022) suggest that the death toll of military forces in Ukraine approach 200,000, while civilian casualties may be around 16,300 (with 6,430 civilians killed). In turn, a https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-24547256on war-related deaths in Iraq post-2003 puts the figure at 461,000.

The moral choice is to have as little as possible to do with warmongers of any stripe.

That would indeed be a consistent line and scrap all this commemoration of the Easter Rising for a good start.

 

[Purple]

After saying I try not to discuss Irish history here goes another exception. I justify it by saying I am learning something I didn't know.

It seems it was O Connell who said it about him, according to the IT that repository of all truth. https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/a-bit-of-welly-the-iron-duke-s-irishness-1.1546456

I hadn't realised that it was said about him rather than something he said himself.

However he does illustrate the point that he was of a class who, despite generations in Ireland still sent their sons to school in England.

You say he was proud of his Irishness, have you any reference as to that or what it meant to him to be Irish.

Yes, my mistake, it was O'Connell.
His Irishness was within a broader British identity, just like the Unionists in NI. Their Irishness is very different to mine but nonetheless they are no less Irish than me.

 

[Firefly]

I don't there is any possibility of us turning into a war-mongering country.

We are like a small bungalow in the country living next door to a much bigger house with very good security, thereby acting as a deterrent from breaking into us. This is, IMO, a discussion about us buying a dog, installing some CCTV and getting a padlock for the front gates.

 

[Purple]

That’s the principle. Russia has resorted to war. Now what for Ukraine?

We're giving them tea and sympathy, up there with thoughts and prayers on the usefulness charts.
Ukraine want the means to fight the Russia. On that front we are zero help. We won't even give them money to buy weapons.

 

[cremeegg]

Yes that would stick in my craw as well. The fact that you see this as on the contrary rather than in parallel with those who carry wear their neutrality pacifist halo suggests that you may be lacking a tad of neutrality yourself.

I don't want to see Ireland building up a military or joining any military alliance. That doesn't mean I don't see some of the pronouncements of those on that side of the argument as self aggrandising.

That would indeed be a consistent line and scrap all this commemoration of the Easter Rising for a good start.

Colin Powell, Invasion of Iraq, Easter Rising.

Sorry you have lost me there.

 

[cremeegg]

We're giving them tea and sympathy, up there with thoughts and prayers on the usefulness charts.

We are giving 80,000 Ukrainians housing, education, employment or social welfare. I really don't think the above is a sensible comment.

 

[cremeegg]

Ukraine want the means to fight the Russia. On that front we are zero help. We won't even give them money to buy weapons.

Agreed.

 

[Purple]

@Purple Now you are changing the subject so fast I am struggling to keep up.

My opologies.

The heading which you put on this thread is Neutrality.

Correct.

That is a question of aligning or not with the different sides in a conflict.

Incorrect.

I believe we should not align militarily, giving refuge to Ukranians is certainly something should do.

If we sit back and watch enough of them getting killed that problem will sort itself out.

Seperately, we could have a well armed neutrally like Switzerland or an unarmed neutrality like Costs Rica (which you tells me has its own internal debates, well what a shock). I would like to see an unarmed neutrality, it would be a great example to the world.

Indeed, a great example of a rich country relying on its poorer neighbours to protect it.
As I have previously pointed out Costa Rica relied on the US for protection.

We do of course need to ensure the state has a monopoly of force within the state, though this can be a policing matter.

Seriously?

The question of detecting foreign planes or ships is not a trivial one.

I agree. What should we do about it?

The issue of cyber security is also one which I believe the state should address more seriously.

Excellent! We have to cooperate with our EU partners and the UK and US to do that.

What about our maritime waters?

 

[Purple]

The who ?

More seriously, the Plantations and the Penal Laws are in no sense makey-up history. However this is hardly the thread to argue Irish history. In fact I try to avoid arguing Irish history, people know the basic facts, how they choose to interpret them is their own choice.

I would make an exception on this issue of Irish responsibility for colonialism as it is a new topic that has not been done to death yet.

In the context of our makey-up Irishness we get to pretend that the Protestant ruling class wasn't really Irish and so ignore their participation at a leadership level in the creation of the British Empire. That's the point I am making.

We also ignore the tens of thousands of "normal" Irish men who served loyally in the British Colonial forces over the centuries.

 

[cremeegg]

I don't there is any possibility of us turning into a war-mongering country.

We are like a small bungalow in the country living next door to a much bigger house with very good security, thereby acting as a deterrent from breaking into us. This is, IMO, a discussion about us buying a dog, installing some CCTV and getting a padlock for the front gates.

Very well put.

However in my opinion there is a significant element in Ireland that thinks we should aspire to a much bigger house too, and very good security to go with it, cause that is what grown-ups do.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Sorry you have lost me there.

The moral choice is to have as little as possible to do with warmongers of any stripe.

Easter Rising/warmongering. Where exactly did you get lost?

 

[Purple]

Very well put.

However in my opinion there is a significant element in Ireland that thinks we should aspire to a much bigger house too, and very good security to go with it, cause that is what grown-ups do.

To extend the analogy, at the moment we are relying on our neighbour to use their shotgun to guard our front gate, their CCTV to detect burglars in our garden (because we aren't able to) and we allow their dog to come into our garden if said burglar is detected. We know that in the very unlikely event of a home invasion that same neighbour will turn up with their shotgun and dog and protect us.
At the same time we don't really like our neighbour and give out about how they let their dog wander around the town, pooing on the lawns of other homeowners and we give out about who they point their shotgun at.

If we buy our own dog and shotgun and get our own CCTV that doesn't mean we have use them the same way our neighbour does. Though we might consider joining the neighbourhood watch.

 

[cremeegg]

@Purple

I wasn't aware that Costa Rica was richer than the US

I said 'That (neutrality) is a question of aligning or not with the different sides in a conflict'. To which you replied 'incorrect'.

You seem to think that neutrality for a country means having the means to defend itself. Well I suggest that that is a simple misuse of the word neutral.

A militarily powerful country might be neutral or not, just as a militarily powerless country might be.

The idea that if we going to be neutral we should have a military strong enough to defend ourselves is reasonable (though I don't agree) but having a strong military is not the usual definition of neutrality.

 

[cremeegg]

Easter Rising/warmongering. Where exactly did you get lost?

Oh. Now I follow. It wasn't an immediate connection for me, though of of course I understand your view. As I said above I generally try to avoid arguing Irish history.

 

[Purple]

@Purple

I wasn't aware that Costa Rica was richer than the US

Either was I.

I said 'That (neutrality) is a question of aligning or not with the different sides in a conflict'. To which you replied 'incorrect'.

We are already aligned against Russia. The question is about military alignment.

You seem to think that neutrality for a country means having the means to defend itself. Well I suggest that that is a simple misuse of the word neutral.

A militarily powerful country might be neutral or not, just as a militarily powerless country might be.

The idea that if we going to be neutral we should have a military strong enough to defend ourselves is reasonable (though I don't agree) but having a strong military is not the usual definition of neutrality.

At the moment we rely on the UK, USA and EU members to protect us in a time of conflict. We have an agreement in place which allows UK military aircraft into our airspace to defend us. We allow US warships into our waters to protect our vital infrastructure. That's not neutrality. That's just avoiding our responsibilities.

 

[cremeegg]

To extend the analogy, at the moment we are relying on our neighbour to use their shotgun to guard our front gate, their CCTV to detect burglars in our garden (because we aren't able to) and we allow their dog to come into our garden if said burglar is detected. We know that in the very unlikely event of a home invasion that same neighbour will turn up with their shotgun and dog and protect us.
At the same time we don't really like our neighbour and give out about how they let their dog wander around the town, pooing on the lawns of other homeowners and we give out about who they point their shotgun at.

If we buy our own dog and shotgun and get our own CCTV that doesn't mean we have use them the same way our neighbour does. Though we might consider joining the neighbourhood watch.

Spot on.

Unfortunately I do not accept the good faith of those in Irish politics who would have us buy our own dog and shotgun.

Tony Blair offered George W Bush a blank cheque in support of the invasion of Iraq. I would not trust the Irish politics class not to be even more willing to do so.

I don't like dogs or shotguns and I think a home invasion is unlikely.

 

[Itchy]

Talking about military neutrality of course there is a moral aspect. The major powers in the world often seek to advance their interests by war. While at any point in time one power or another may be more actively engaged in that, no one power has a monopoly on unjustified invasion. This is immoral and we should not allow ourselves to be sucked into one side or the other just because they are on the side of right this time.

This seems to be meandering, I dont follow. What is the moral aspect of neutrality?

Ukraine has been the victim of aggression on this occasion, I am glad we are doing more to assist them than we did for the people of Iraq.

Ukraine was neutral, then invaded, why is the moral position to be neutral?

Looking after the interests of the country is also a moral responsibility of the state, indeed I believe it is its first responsibility, and I believe staying out of foreign military engagement is an important aspect of that.

I don't want to see Ireland building up a military or joining any military alliance. That doesn't mean I don't see some of the pronouncements of those on that side of the argument as self aggrandising.

These two statements directly contradict each other, IMO. The interests of the state are not only internal. It is also a diminution of the capacity of the state to contribute to global peace and security, in general.