My Debt Story

[Time]

Private detectives have no more powers than a private citizen. They can only access information in the public domain unless they are corrupt of course and exert undue influence over public servants.

Very interesting they are now telling people to hand back the keys.

It saves them on legal costs. They may not win a defended case which would cost them more.

 

[Shuttleworth]

Agreed and now even the big solicitor firms are exactly the same. Their masters are the banks and NAMA. Easy money for the boys.

We're not all singing from the same hymn sheet within the legal profession. It's the Big Firms, and then everyone else. I had a legal practice which went to the wall. Never made millions, circa 60k a year as salary, always charged very fair rates for my work. I'm now on social welfare. Lots of my colleagues, all small practices, have had to close as well.

In 1987 a weak and impotent Law Society agreed to the Boland Regulations which passed on the responsibility of vouching property title to banks when also acting for the purchaser, for no payment. Insurance became compulsory for solicitors as a result, effectively indemnifying the bank from any losses it might incur if its own minions didn't check title properly. A complete conflict of interest and a sell out of the profession but there you go. That system combined with the property bubble allowed Michael Lynn and Thomas Byrne to do what they did. Solicitors insurance premiums for those of us left, soared as a result. My last quotation was for 28,000 Euro for 2011 as opposed to 2008 when I paid 2,750 Euro.

I hate seeing my former colleagues act for the banks. They'll drag out every case for what it's worth even if there's no prospect of a debt being repaid. They know they have good clients backed by the taxpayer but like everyone they will do what they have to do to survive.

I would love to be in business helping people settle their debts but I can no longer afford the running costs. It's a chicken and egg situation I'm afraid.

 

[Time]

They'll drag out every case for what it's worth even if there's no prospect of a debt being repaid.

That is something the law society should be stopping. Wasted costs for absolutely no return.

 

[Bronte]

That is something the law society should be stopping. Wasted costs for absolutely no return.

You are joking the law society has no interest, nor do it's' members in anything else. Why else do you think the lawyers were cheering on Seanie recently in the tea room. They can see the doller signs before them for years to come.

 

[Bronte]

Also if you go to a solicitor for advice on dealing with a court case regarding debt, you will have a struggle finding impartial advice or representation. The vast majority of solicitors especially in small towns handle work for the banks and do not want to upset their masters from whom most of their work is coming from these days.

My experience of the attitude of solicitors to the banks would that it would be negative. Are you saying solicitiors will not act for people in debt problems with the banks. What work do solicitiors do for the banks?

 

[Time]

Are you saying solicitiors will not act for people in debt problems with the banks.

Where a conflict of interest exists or the solicitor will not act on moral issues.

What work do solicitiors do for the banks?

The big Dublin firms farm out the donkey work in debt collection to local solicitors that attend the local district courts. So when you get Crosskerrys for example suing someone in Dingle, a local solicitor will get the forms stamped in the local court office and attend court on behalf of the Dublin firm. Same with instalment orders etc all the work is farmed out. When you factor in how many big firms are in the debt collection game and the number of local solicitors attending court, you will find all the regular solicitors have their case loads from the various big firms.

Basically they act as country agents for the big Dublin firms. For many small town solicitors it is now their bread and butter and they don't want to annoy their big city masters and the banks.

 

[Bronte]

I don't understand what moral issue you are referring to but in any case you go to a solicitor for a legal issue not a moral one.

Are you saying that all the solicitors in all the small towns in Ireland are working on debt cases for banks. This cannot be.

The only cases I've heard of where solicitors will not act, and things might have changed, is when it's a case against one of their own. For this the Law Society has in recently years a list of solicitors who will act.

Presumably the reason people are not legally represented in court cases is because they cannot afford it and who amongst us can afford High court cases in any case. You have to be rich or poor to go to the High Court so that excludes a lot of the population.

 

[Time]

I know quite a few solicitors with very highly held moral views and won't represent debtors in court cases. You know the "you must pay your debts!" types.

I know that in one district court every one of the regular attending solicitors has a big workload of debt cases on behalf of the banks and the big Dublin firms. I had an awful job finding someone to take on a case where a debtor was seriously ill and needed an adjournment. In the end I found a newly qualified solicitor with no ties to the banks to take on the case. None of the others wanted to know.

 

[Bronte]

I know quite a few solicitors with very highly held moral views and won't represent debtors in court cases. You know the "you must pay your debts!" types.

.

Are your sure it wasn't a case of the client hadn't a hope and couldn't afford to make it worthwhile for the solicitor rather than the solicitor refusing on moral grounds. Still actually don't get how morals come into it. And it would be rare indeed in this climate the small town solicitor who can turn down business. District court is financially not worthwhile to solicitors in general.

In relation to your court experience. How many solicitors did you ask and how do you know it was because they will only work on behalf of a bank? Did not one of them say, give me 100 Euro and I'll speak in front of the judge? Could you not have asked for an adjournment yourself for the client? Or explained it to the banks solicitors and asked for their consent. I'm not doubting you but I must say next trip to Ireland I'm going to pop down to the courts myself to see what's going on as I didn't realise the district court was swamped with debt cases, I've never heard about them in the papers. In any case I cannot see how a solicitor would refuse an easy 100 to ask for an adjournment and how that would affect his relationship with the banks.

Maybe Vanilla or MF1 or one of the other legal eagles who go to court regularly could confirm your experiences.

 

[Time]

It had gotten to the stage where the district court has expanded from one day a month to 2 days a month for civil cases. The vast majority of these were debt cases.

They tend not to report debt cases in the local papers anymore. They tend to concentrate on criminal cases for the court reports.

 

[Shuttleworth]

Are your sure it wasn't a case of the client hadn't a hope and couldn't afford to make it worthwhile for the solicitor rather than the solicitor refusing on moral grounds. Still actually don't get how morals come into it. And it would be rare indeed in this climate the small town solicitor who can turn down business. District court is financially not worthwhile to solicitors in general.

In relation to your court experience. How many solicitors did you ask and how do you know it was because they will only work on behalf of a bank? Did not one of them say, give me 100 Euro and I'll speak in front of the judge? Could you not have asked for an adjournment yourself for the client? Or explained it to the banks solicitors and asked for their consent. I'm not doubting you but I must say next trip to Ireland I'm going to pop down to the courts myself to see what's going on as I didn't realise the district court was swamped with debt cases, I've never heard about them in the papers. In any case I cannot see how a solicitor would refuse an easy 100 to ask for an adjournment and how that would affect his relationship with the banks.

Maybe Vanilla or MF1 or one of the other legal eagles who go to court regularly could confirm your experiences.

District Court judges are sick of these cases. They want a Debt Mediation and Settlement Scheme set up, as happened with the Army Deafness claims.

Solicitors would definitely take on cases if there was a prospect of payment of fees from debtors, which there unfortunately isn't.

Most people in Ireland did not traditionally default on their debts, which is why we had the credit spree we did. Most defaults now are through genuine hardship.

There are a group of legal people and accountants recently formed who are taking on these cases pro bono. T&Cs on here probably forbids me from mentioning their name but a Google search should throw it up quickly.

 

[Bronte]

Shuttleworth I'm sure you can mention the firm taking on Pro bono cases as it will benefit others on here.

Pro bono is where a solicitor takes on a case for nothing on behalf of a client.

I was arguing the point with Time that I thought the solicitors wouldn't take on cases because a) the client's cannot afford it and b) even if the solicitor does it for a low cost it's not worthwhile to the solicitor.

Could you or Time tell us what is actually happening in these cases, a typical case for example and what the judges attitude is to the debtors, the instituations and what orders are being sought and what orders are being given.

If these cases are so prevelant, it's amazing that they are not being reported or investigated by the news media. But maybe I've missed that.

 

[Time]

If you go down to any district court on the civil days you will find the list packed with debt cases in their various stages.

A typical case would be a bank seeking an instalment order against a debtor. There could be 50 or 60 of these applications at each sitting.

3 things can happen here:

a.) The debtor shows up and has all his/her statements of means with them. The judge asks the debtor questions about its contents and asks if the debtor is in employment or on social welfare. From that the judge will make a decision on what can be afforded per week/month. Usually if the only income is SW no order is made and the banks solicitor is told to take this information back to their masters.
Where an order is made the judge will ask the debtor if he/she can afford it first. The bank will usually try and seek an unrealistic amount but the judge will refuse to entertain that.

b.) The debtor shows up but has no statement of means or he sent it in late. Usually the judge will put the case back for a month so that the statement can be submitted and next time situation a will happen.

c.) No show by the debtor. When this happens the judge will check that he was properly served. Upon proper service the judge will ask the solicitor acting for the bank what order they are seeking. Usually they will be seeking a massive amount of money and with no debtor present to challenge the order is granted by default.

These cases are not news worthy anymore as to report a typical sitting in a provincial paper would take up many pages. The judges are very sympathetic towards the debtors in general especially where they take the time to appear and make an effort. On the other hand judges are sick of the banks seeking unrealistic amounts and taking people on SW to court where no order will be made. I know of one judge that will strike out bank cases for minor errors in the paperwork.

 

[missthrifty]

Hello, Good Luck in your new life. Why would anyone in a similar situation to yourself feel morally superior to your intentions. The temptation to hard ball the bank and offer 10c/15c (check what NAMA is giving them for their toxic loans) as opposed to 40/50c would be a good starting point. Quote: Don Corleone: "Never let anyone outside the family know what you're thinking". Therefore keep your powder dry and record the meeting as I understand that bank manager's offices are set up to record their meetings with customers. Slan

 

[mchugh2008]

Baz, posted you the details you were looking for re the advice, help etc i was given. See your PM. Best of luck with it and I hope it all works out. Enjoy down under

 

[Bronte]

. On the other hand judges are sick of the banks seeking unrealistic amounts and taking people on SW to court where no order will be made.

Thanks Time for the insight. What level of costs and penalties are the banks seeking in addition to the original debt? Do the judges look at these figures and make any comments. You have to wonder why on earth a bank goes to the costs of a court case where the person is on SW and they know no order will be made. Is it so they can add more costs on I wonder.

 

[Time]

They are only awarded costs where an order is actually made. So they will get nothing if they go on a fishing trip to see if they can get something.

Where they do get costs they can only get scaled costs which are quite modest €50-70 depending on the amount of the original judgement amount.

In the courts where I have had experience the judge has passed snide comments on some of the amounts sought. €400 a month was the standard amount that banks would usually seek. The judge would usually say something like "You will be lucky" and "I think you need a reality check, Ms xxxx".

 

[Shuttleworth]

Shuttleworth I'm sure you can mention the firm taking on Pro bono cases as it will benefit others on here.

Pro bono is where a solicitor takes on a case for nothing on behalf of a client.

I was arguing the point with Time that I thought the solicitors wouldn't take on cases because a) the client's cannot afford it and b) even if the solicitor does it for a low cost it's not worthwhile to the solicitor.

Could you or Time tell us what is actually happening in these cases, a typical case for example and what the judges attitude is to the debtors, the instituations and what orders are being sought and what orders are being given.

If these cases are so prevelant, it's amazing that they are not being reported or investigated by the news media. But maybe I've missed that.

The group is called New Beginning.

Time has explained what is occurring at the moment very well.

 

[manns]

Just wondering if the property that baz..... is selling has a mortgage on it with the same institution or with a different institution or maybe there is no debt on it.

On the Private Eye, haven't heard anything about these guys. Has anyone any stories on this. Its interesting to hear. I know for a fact that there are debt collectors out there though. Friend of mine owed 7k to credit card company, is seriously in debt and offered 4k to settle. CC refused and sent out debt collector. Debt collector told my friend that this particular CCC wont settle with anyone. He said its crazy in this era. Does anyone know if the debt is frozen when the debt collectors start knocking or does the interest keep clocking up? I told my friend that I though interest would continue to increase but I wasnt sure.

As for the solicitors and the legal profession...I dont have alot of sympathy for you all. It was your own guys that has caused you the problems you have today and secondly it was an unwillingness by all to modernise probably because things were just too good. I'm sure you'll agree, the practices and the processes are in complete need of change. Let me tell you a couple of stories just to verify my statements. Sold a house couple of years ago and waited and waited for my cheque to come from my EX-solicitor. Call after call to the solicitor and 6 weeks later I get my cheque. I called the buyers solicitor to find when the cheque was paid and it was verified that the cheque was with my solicitor for 6 weeks. WHY you may ask. Its called " keep your Client Account maintained with a minimum balance and we the bank will give the solicitor preferential interest rates and will allow you to borrow against the strength of your balance" Wow..so I began to understand why my payment was delayed, why so many solicitors are either property investors or developers..ist easy when you're getting money for nothing and earning interest on other peoples money..I could be one too if I was getting interest on other peoples money. When it comes to paying fees, the solicitor never seem to mention that I earned interest on your money in my client account so we'll deduct that from my fees!!!
As for the Barristers, we all you need do is be in court and during or after the case is heard, hand around and drop into the restaurant / cafe close by. It will open your eyes what you will see. You just might see your barrister and that of the other partys barrister sitting down together having a good chat and a laugh. Its sole destroying. And then try the negotiating process on the so called steps of the court. Certainly my experience and that of many friends of mine is not about actual negotiating but about maximising fees for themselves. I'm sorry but the legal profession needs to be totally reformed and quickly. I haven't seem any moves in this direction that I would call positive or proactive towards servicing the needs of the general public in a more open and fair way. The above are my personal experiences with the profession and may not be the norm across the country. Will be interesting to get the point a view of the legal profession out there.

 

[baz6679]

Just a quick update. I made a request for a full disclosure of all personal data held by my lovely bank under the data protection act. Guys you should see the toing and froing they are now doing. In my request I pointed out that I want an absolute full disclosure including all conversations they have had with any third parties.
After getting 2 phone calls from the credit card section about me not paying my monthly payment instalment via the debt agency someone from the collections section in card services wrote to me asking me to contact her urgently.
I duly did and the first thing I asked her was she recording the call. She told me she wasn't and I then advised I was , cue silence. I then advised her was she aware of the data protection legislation, silence again, i then advised I had made a full request and surely could she not see this on my file(which she apparently had in front of her)
I told her to go speak with her data protection officer and there would be no further payment until they responded to my request.

Guess what, 3 days later a lovely letter from Data Protection comes in thanking me so much for my request and they are dealing with it and giving me a direct dial for the lovely data protection officer who will do anything to help me.

Bear in mind my full request had reached them almost 2 weeks before hand by recorded delivery and they did not even bother to acknowledge!

You should listen to the effect on the other end of the phone when you tell the caller that you are recording the call!!