Moved to Germany 3 years ago, paid 10yrs+ PRSI in Ireland, what pension do I get?

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murphaph

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Hello all,
I am looking at my pension situation at the moment. Here are some basic facts about me:

-34 years old next month
-started insurable employment in Ireland (according to my E301 form) on the 30/11/1998
-left insurable employment in Ireland on the 15/2/2009
-I think that's 529 contributions in Ireland
-Travelled for a year or so, settling down in Germany and returning to insurable employment here in Berlin in early 2010

I discovered from a friend here that he pays voluntary NI contributions in the UK to "keep up" his UK pension. I googled around and it seems that this is not possible in Ireland, though the DSP seem to quote "European rules" as the reason:
Under EU legislation it not possible for a person to be subject to the social insurance systems of two or more member states at the same time. This means that you cannot pay Voluntary Contributions in Ireland at the same time as you are in insurable employment, self-employment, receiving credited contributions or paying Voluntary Contributions in another EU member state.
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http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Topics/PRSI/Pages/volcons.aspx

Does anyone know if this is BS? Surely if the UK allows it then it isn't contrary to any EU laws?

Assuming I can't make voluntary contributions, what will happen to my 10 yrs of PRSI contributions in Ireland?

Do I need to have them added to the German system? Do I need to do anything before retirement?

Quite confused and would hate to think that 10 years work would count for nothing (hoping it doesn't). It is unlikely that I'll return to employment in Ireland as life has taken me this way. Any help appreciated.
 
You're assuming that your friend is doing everything "by the rules" - it's always possible that they are paying NI contributions without having officially told anyone in the UK that they don't live there (still using a parent's address, for example).

At any rate, based on what this page from citizens information has to say, if you worked in another EU country you would be able to transfer your credits over to Ireland, which means the opposite should also be possible. I know there is a form (an E-something or other), you can get to transfer PRSI credits to Germany although I haven't gotten around to doing it either. It might be better to contact the Rentenversicherung in Berlin and ask them.

Have you read this TT thread as well?
 
Just to clarify that the link in the thread mentioned above is to request a statement of a person's contribution record, not their pension entitlements.
 
Janet said:
Also check out this thread: Does state contributory pension discriminate against early starters/ broken record? - there's a link to a social welfare page where you can request a statement of your pension entitlements.
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Hi Janet,
Yes I already saw that page and sent off my request. Not sure if that's the same as an E301 (which i already have and which took several weeks to arrive)

I don't think my pal is breaking any UK rules. Even the Deutscherentenversicherung states (in English) on their website that a German citizen or someone who has contributed to the German system (for a minmum period, think 5 years) can continue to voluntarily contribute if they so wish.

The German state pension is not exactly an attractive ROI and I wouldn't be too keen on putting in one penny more into it than I have to but the Irish one is quite generous IMO (at least at present) so I'd be more than happy to continue paying voluntarily into it, but apparently we're not allowed to (even though 2 large EU countries don't seem to have problem with their citizens doing exactly that when they move abroad within the EU).

Do you know if at the end of the day I'll (and you too I suppose!) receive 1 or 2 pensions? (assuming i don't work anywhere else in between).
 
At the moment I think that I'll get two pensions - but it's looking like the Irish one isn't going to pay out an awful lot if they take my contributions (made over 17 years or so) and use them against an average which is worked out over my full working life (which, based on starting at 16 (for PRSI purposes) will be 50 years or so). But I have to admit that I haven't spent much time figuring this stuff out yet. If I can get a better and/or an earlier pension here by transferring my contributions over, I'll do it. But from what I can see, if I transfer my contributions, I'm not transferring the contributins as such, just the number of months/years. Which would mean that instead of having to have paid in for x number of years here, I'd only have to pay in for x minus the years I paid in in Ireland. I'm not sure if that means that I'd still also have access to an Irish state pension or not though.

I also need to figure out what to do with the two other pensions I have going in Ireland. As in, when I worked, there was always the possibility of starting a separate pension and, being a sensible girl, I always did it. Just like I started a Riesterente in Germany a couple of years ago. But starting them is easy, as is letting the money go into them automatically every month. It's the tidying up the other end of it I need to concentrate on. Because if I'm not able for it now, I don't really see that I'm going to be any more able for it in 25 years.

Am interested to see if anyone else can shed any light on this, too but will have to get my head down and do a bit of gruntwork on figuring out exactly what I have first, I think.
 
I am also pretty convinced now (after reading the document from the DRV in the link below) that I will (assuming nothing changes and I work here in Germany until retirement) get 2 pensions.

I (like you) have reached the minimum contributions (520) to be automatically eligible for a contributory pension in Ireland, regardless of other EU contributions. We get the Irish pension in its own right, so to speak. At current rates (lol) I would be entitled to €92 pw (10-14 contributions average per year of working life-it is based on when you entered insured employment AFAIK, not simply at age 16) from Ireland.

I would then be entitled to a German state pension based on their criteria (complicated points based system that can't easily be summarised here) which would take into account my salary, months worked and contributions paid.

You must make at least 5 years contributions to the German system to be eligible for any pension but contributions in any other EU (and some other) states can be used to gain this eligibility, but not to "top up" your German pension (same rules apply in Ireland AFAICS)

I've also got a private pension that was compulsory at the firm I worked most of my time in Ireland for, which I'm also curious about (contributed to that for about 8 years). That will be an interesting one too.

[broken link removed]
 
I think I'm going to try and find a day to go to the DRV and just ask them about it in person. I should get that certificate of contributions in Ireland first. Knowing my luck my dad probably kept me on the books for the times I was in Germany as a student, keeping my wages for himself and I'll be disqualified from everything on the basis of clearly having been unable to be working in both countries at the same time (drama queen pessimist? Moi? Never!)
 
Reviving an old thread here as things have changed a bit..

@Janet: the changes announced to pensions in Ireland will probably work out in your favour. By the time you retire, the averaging mechanism will have been replaced by a "total contributions" mechanism. A full contributory pension will be due to anyone who makes 30 years worth of contributions (52 contributions being 1 year), regardless of how that was achieved. Anything over that and there's no benefit, anything less and it's pro-rata so assuming your 17 years were all "complete" (ie, 52 contributions) then you'll get 17/30 of a full contributory pension, which is probably better than the averaged result because you started working as a teenager.

In my case it seems it will reduce my expected pension by a tenner a week by my calculations, ho hum.

I am currently excluded from paying voluntary PRSI contributions in Ireland (I have rental income there but am not subject to PRSI as I'm non-resident and it is forbidden to make contributions, even voluntarily, as I am socially insured in another EU state, though this "EU" rule still seems shady to me or Germany wouldn't allow it either) BUT...

I intend leaving socially insured employment before Irish retirement age (around 60 if everything works out) and living from my rental income and private pension fund alone until my German state pension kicks in and later on my Irish one.

I wonder then, could I leave my employment in Germany, briefly return to Ireland at age 60 and become liable for PRSI on my Irish rental income (not socially insured elsewhere and not non-resident) and then return to Germany, continuing to pay PRSI Class S voluntary contributions to boost my ultimate pension entitlement a bit? Any takers on this question?
 
murphaph said:
Any takers on this question?
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By the time we get to pension age they will have had enough pension reform and austerity that you'll just end up with one pension based on your total contributions in the EU/EEA states :D
 
Unless you have a crystal ball it would be impossible to say what will happen to pensions as we know them at present. There have been many changes to pensions in the past couple years and many more to come in the next few years.

At present your eu contributions would be taken into consideration to boost your Irish pension but what affect that would have in the far distant future is unknown. Only a couple of years ago, with those contributions (and the eu ones) you could expect over a half rate pension. Not anymore!
 
murphaph said:
Reviving an old thread here as things have changed a bit..

@Janet: the changes announced to pensions in Ireland will probably work out in your favour. By the time you retire, the averaging mechanism will have been replaced by a "total contributions" mechanism. A full contributory pension will be due to anyone who makes 30 years worth of contributions (52 contributions being 1 year), regardless of how that was achieved. Anything over that and there's no benefit, anything less and it's pro-rata so assuming your 17 years were all "complete" (ie, 52 contributions) then you'll get 17/30 of a full contributory pension, which is probably better than the averaged result because you started working as a teenager.

In my case it seems it will reduce my expected pension by a tenner a week by my calculations, ho hum.

I am currently excluded from paying voluntary PRSI contributions in Ireland (I have rental income there but am not subject to PRSI as I'm non-resident and it is forbidden to make contributions, even voluntarily, as I am socially insured in another EU state, though this "EU" rule still seems shady to me or Germany wouldn't allow it either) BUT...

I intend leaving socially insured employment before Irish retirement age (around 60 if everything works out) and living from my rental income and private pension fund alone until my German state pension kicks in and later on my Irish one.

I wonder then, could I leave my employment in Germany, briefly return to Ireland at age 60 and become liable for PRSI on my Irish rental income (not socially insured elsewhere and not non-resident) and then return to Germany, continuing to pay PRSI Class S voluntary contributions to boost my ultimate pension entitlement a bit? Any takers on this question?
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Just seeing this here a few years later. You realize that you have to pay tax to the German taxman when you reach pension age- regardless if you live in Ireland or Germany? I am unfortunately in the same boat. I paid voluntary contributions into the DRV pension pot- and I am left now with a yearly tax declaration to the Germans- regardless if I have an income lower than their tax free allowance or not! For the rest of my life....A warning to all who think about paying into the DRV!
 
Hi all,

I'm living in Germany and the bulk of my state pension is in Germany. I cannot recommend making voluntary contributions to Germany - it's incredibly expensive! However, if you have a significant number of years worked in Germany and had a good salary, the option is to consolidate your Irish / other EU state pensions into your German one. Yes, the German state pension is incredibly expensive overall, but the payout is far higher than in Ireland. The standard payout is on a 'points' basis. The average income in Germany per year awards you 'one' point. If you earn double the annual income (until the threshold) you can be awarded two points for that year. You receive a State Pension based on your number of points, with 40 points giving you a standard pension, currently worth approximately €1450 per month. So with 80 points, you can receive a State pension of €2900. For me, I only worked in Ireland for a few years, and have lived in many locations, but my base was Germany. I have about 9 years to consolidate from different countries. I understand those 9 years will bring me 9 points. I'd suggest you do the maths and contact the Deutsche Renten Versicherung to understand what might make most sense for you...

Yes, we'll have to pay tax on this pension, but I'm not sure how this works if living in Ireland: surely if resident in Ireland we'd have to do the tax return there?

We will retire to Ireland and I'm actually searching for a thread on here about retiring to Ireland... from Germany, or anyone who can help us with good advice... grateful for all help!
 
Irishgirl27 said:
Hi all,

I'm living in Germany and the bulk of my state pension is in Germany. I cannot recommend making voluntary contributions to Germany - it's incredibly expensive! However, if you have a significant number of years worked in Germany and had a good salary, the option is to consolidate your Irish / other EU state pensions into your German one. Yes, the German state pension is incredibly expensive overall, but the payout is far higher than in Ireland. The standard payout is on a 'points' basis. The average income in Germany per year awards you 'one' point. If you earn double the annual income (until the threshold) you can be awarded two points for that year. You receive a State Pension based on your number of points, with 40 points giving you a standard pension, currently worth approximately €1450 per month. So with 80 points, you can receive a State pension of €2900. For me, I only worked in Ireland for a few years, and have lived in many locations, but my base was Germany. I have about 9 years to consolidate from different countries. I understand those 9 years will bring me 9 points. I'd suggest you do the maths and contact the Deutsche Renten Versicherung to understand what might make most sense for you...

Yes, we'll have to pay tax on this pension, but I'm not sure how this works if living in Ireland: surely if resident in Ireland we'd have to do the tax return there?

We will retire to Ireland and I'm actually searching for a thread on here about retiring to Ireland... from Germany, or anyone who can help us with good advice... grateful for all help!
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Welcome to the club!

You will have the pleasure to make two income tax declarations per year when you reach pension age...one for IR and one for Finanzamt Neubrandenburg. The Germans will tax your German pension- regardless where you live. And the Irish will tax the Irish pension. You will also have the pleasure to travel once per year to the German embassy in Dublin to sign a declaration that you are still alive....it is called a "Lebensbescheinigung". You will do that for the rest of your life! Your pension will be stopped if you do not follow their orders. The German tax office will take your Irish- or any other income- into consideration and put you into a higher tax bracket as well...."Progression".
I hope your main income will be from Germany. If it is coming from somewhere else and you are living in Ireland, the Germans will tax all your German income from the first cent because you won't qualify for a "Steuerfreibetrag".

I have an awful feeling about your other different countries you mentioned. First: The time worked there won't qualify you for any German pension points unless you was sent to those countries by a German employer and always treated under German legislation instead of legislation from another jurisdiction. Those years may might qualify you for a pro rata pension from each of those countries you worked in- all depending on their legislation. It is impossible " to consolidate your Irish / other state pensions into your German one" as you claim. Second: Those countries might want the same from you as well- tax declaration and a cert showing that you are still alive. I know a woman who has to fork out 3 certs per year to proof that she is still alive....each at different times of the year...for different states. Well- pensioners have the free travel and we are kept busy that way....

Great fun, isn't it? I went into the same trap.....
 
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