McDowell: "Ireland in the 1980s was poor because it was state dominated"

So, again what we know is the present supply of housing is affordable by nature of the fact it is virtually all being snapped up.

What will happen, when more is made available, remains to be seen,
 
Steven Barrett said:
Part of the reasons for the strain today's health services are under is the expanding population of sick people. We are all living longer but generally unhealthier lives. In the 1980's, if you lead the lives that some people lead today, you'd simply die younger. Now, thanks to modern medicine, you are living longer but are adding to the strain of the health system. Then add in the cost of modern medicine.
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Its unfair to blame people with underlying health conditions that might have killed or incapacitated them 20/30/40 years for supposedly being a drain on the health service.

Ironically part of the reason people are living longer and better lives is that they're acutely aware of the importance of regular medical checkups, daily exercise and dietary constraints in maintaining good health, and comply with these to a far greater extent than previous generations did.

On top of that, conditions like diabetes and cardiac issues are being diagnosed much earlier than heretofore, allowing for more effective treatments and vastly improved life outcomes for sufferers.
 
TomEdison said:
Couple of factors:

80s (and pre-80s) telecoms technology was incredibly clunky and expensive by comparison with today's. It really did cost a lot more (in real terms) to provide the service.

Posts and Telegraphs was a monopoly service provider, and monopolists have no great incentive to improve efficiency. But also. . .
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There was no earthly reason why in the 1970s a three minute long distance call cost 80 pence for three minutes, which until the late years of that decade exceeded or matched the price of a gallon of petrol.

The phone service was clunky and inefficient because it was a State service that operated primary for the benefit of its staff and neither the general public nor the common good. There was even a six month wait to have a new phone installed.

It took Albert Reynolds and Michael Smurfit to drag it out of the Stone Age.
 
Gordon Gekko said:
We hear a lot from whingers who have to wait ages in A&E, but the biggest reason for a long wait in A&E is that you’ve been triaged as not being that urgent a case. And one of the biggest issues is eejits showing up at A&E when they should be availing of other, simpler options.
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When you get triaged in A&E, you might get sent back to sit on the benches and wait to be called, or if judged quite ill, sent straight in to a bed/cubicle/armchair/plastic chair to wait for the doctor. Either way the wait is very long, and you do not get updates on when you will be next moved to another stage in the journey (tests, see a doctor, porter moving you to some other location).

On my last visit to A&E with a sick relative, he was quickly judged very ill by the triage nurse, and while already in a wheel chair, wheeled in to wait for the doctor. I went in as well to look after basic needs. We waited over 12 hours before he got upgraded to an armchair, and just short of 24 before he was put on a trolley. During this time I was not allowed to sit, as the situation in A&E was so bad that only patients were permitted the plastic chairs. About every 40 minutes a nurse came by and asked anyone who wasn't a patient to stand up, and then she and a porter gathered up the chairs for sick people.

A&E is a serious place to be, and indeed many people might think of attending for care that could be delivered better elsewhere, but I'm willing to bet that anyone who's been through it once will try any other care path first before going in for a second go.
 
I'm willing to bet that no-one is in A&E voluntarily....all were sent there as they could not be treated in community. Most people avoid it like the plague and exhaust all other options first, such is the poor reputation. And this isn't limited to Ireland. I had an experience with my child on holidays in an EU country and it had such a familiar feeling...we waited 3 hours for stitches having been referred there. Had the same experience (with the same child and same injury!) here at home.
 
kickstart said:
When you get triaged in A&E, you might get sent back to sit on the benches and wait to be called, or if judged quite ill, sent straight in to a bed/cubicle/armchair/plastic chair to wait for the doctor. Either way the wait is very long, and you do not get updates on when you will be next moved to another stage in the journey (tests, see a doctor, porter moving you to some other location).

On my last visit to A&E with a sick relative, he was quickly judged very ill by the triage nurse, and while already in a wheel chair, wheeled in to wait for the doctor. I went in as well to look after basic needs. We waited over 12 hours before he got upgraded to an armchair, and just short of 24 before he was put on a trolley. During this time I was not allowed to sit, as the situation in A&E was so bad that only patients were permitted the plastic chairs. About every 40 minutes a nurse came by and asked anyone who wasn't a patient to stand up, and then she and a porter gathered up the chairs for sick people.

A&E is a serious place to be, and indeed many people might think of attending for care that could be delivered better elsewhere, but I'm willing to bet that anyone who's been through it once will try any other care path first before going in for a second go.
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I was brought to Tallaght Hospital via Ambulance a few years ago with a suspected heart attack. The only person who spoke to me was a woman who asked in I had private insurance and if I would like to be treated as a private patient. After 14 hours I hadn't seen anyone and asked how much longer it would be before I was attended to. They said it would be at least another 12 hours so I had to assume that I wasn't ill and left. A few months later I received a call from a legal firm looking for money. I asked what for and they said it was for medical care in Tallaght Hospital. I replied that if anyone could provide me with any evidence of any medical care I receive I'd be happy to pay the charge. I received no further communication.

There's lots wrong with our A&E's and it has absolutely nothing to do with money or resources. Back in the 80's the hospitals were run by the Nuns and the nurses were terrified of them so they actually did what was required to ensure that patients were treated and the health service was run for the benefit of the patient, not the employees.
 
Purple said:
There's lots wrong with our A&E's and it has absolutely nothing to do with money or resources. Back in the 80's the hospitals were run by the Nuns and the nurses were terrified of them so they actually did what was required to ensure that patients were treated and the health service was run for the benefit of the patient, not the employees.
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On the many occasions I've been thru A&E with relatives, at no point did I encounter nurses who were anything other than busy and caring. Indeed, all the staff I encountered were very caring and busy beyond belief. I did notice that there were very few doctors, and often no evidence of any at all. On a good few occasions, my relatives languished in A&E until shortly after 8am, when a new team would arrive, which seemed to include doctors. I got the distinct impression that the HSE doesn't have many doctors in A&E after hours.
 
Purple said:
Back in the 80's the hospitals were run by the Nuns and the nurses were terrified of them so they actually did what was required to ensure that patients were treated and the health service was run for the benefit of the patient, not the employees.
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A lot of factors have changed since the 80's so I am not sure that we can conclude that waiting times in A&E have deteriorated because nurses are no longer sufficiently terrified into providing a good service. Just one example: there were 9.13 hospital beds per 1,000 people in 1987 compared to 2.55 in 2022. And demographics have changed radically.
I don't know the statistics but I thing the chances of surviving a heart attack etc. have improved considerably in the interim. Well, up to a point - we all have to go at some stage!
 
he makes some fair points, What changed things?
  • A change in focus away from agriculture and towards industry and tech- that was also driven by the investment in Education. I was part of the first generation in my family where 3rd level was even an option. My Uncle's and Aunts between then had 1 person who did the Inter Cert, the rest left school around 14.
  • Education, in my mind also drives entrepreneurship.
  • Education also changed our attitudes, we became less servitude and frankly, became a society that was more prepared to stand up for itself
  • New businesses (and the IDA and the Govt deserve credit for some of that).
  • greater financial flexibility. My father was a small farmer with a full time job. He built a new house in 1972 at a cost of £3k. Only one bank would give him a mortgage, the ACC. None of the bigger banks would even touch him because of his background. That changed in the 80's and 90's
 
kickstart said:
On the many occasions I've been thru A&E with relatives, at no point did I encounter nurses who were anything other than busy and caring. Indeed, all the staff I encountered were very caring and busy beyond belief. I did notice that there were very few doctors, and often no evidence of any at all. On a good few occasions, my relatives languished in A&E until shortly after 8am, when a new team would arrive, which seemed to include doctors. I got the distinct impression that the HSE doesn't have many doctors in A&E after hours.
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They are generally caring, though I've encountered a small minority who would be better suited to being concentration camp guards, but there is massive structural waste and very inefficient work practices. The Nuns just wouldn't stand for that sort of thing.

It is increasingly hard to get doctors to work antisocial hours. That's become more of a problem as medicine has become a female dominated industry since women are far less likely than men to work antisocial hours. The same applies to working hours in general; we get fewer hours of work from the same number of doctors as the sector becomes female dominated. That means we need to train more doctors and perhaps encourage more men into medicine in the same way we are encouraging women into STEM areas.
 
Ruffian said:
A lot of factors have changed since the 80's so I am not sure that we can conclude that waiting times in A&E have deteriorated because nurses are no longer sufficiently terrified into providing a good service. Just one example: there were 9.13 hospital beds per 1,000 people in 1987 compared to 2.55 in 2022. And demographics have changed radically.
I don't know the statistics but I thing the chances of surviving a heart attack etc. have improved considerably in the interim. Well, up to a point - we all have to go at some stage!
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1987 was our highest ratio ever. People spent way longer in hospital back then as well so it's really not a good indicator to use.
Our decline is broadly in line with comparable countries and we still have a higher ratio than the UK. The ratio of staff per bed is also vastly higher than it was 40 years ago, mainly because of the changes in medical science and broadly the changed nature of the sector in general.
 
Didn't get to read the article as it's paywalled and I'm also highly cynical of any analysis by Michael McDowell, being as A. He's currently in the midst of his Seanad re-election campaign and B. He actually represents one of those political and cultural elites with appropriate connections that thrived in 1960 and 70's Ireland. Nonetheless there seems to have been many valid or noteworthy observations made (even if some of them might be unashamedly self serving)

I think the first observation to make about the differences between now and the 70's Ireland that I grew up was that back then political patronage and who you knew meant everything. It meant access to jobs and economic circumstances and opportunities barred to the general public. Politicians, from councillors to TD's, got entire families jobs in the multitude of semis states and Government offices and there's was an entire cohort of completely useless and unsuited people working in roles completely at the behest of political influence and accordingly entire families and even communities under obligation to specific politicians for their livelihoods. (I read in my MA studies a decade ago that roadworks in 1950/60 Ireland was basically a tool for providing seasonal employment for political favourites rather than an infrastructural consideration) Equally the elite of society (political, legal and business and to a lesser degree religious and medical) actively worked to preserve the status quo and ensure they controlled who else they decided to admit to their priveliged inner circle of huge influence and connections. Most of the top jobs were solely the preserve of particular families of those with close connections to the power brokers.

Certainly membership of the EU and joining the EMU as well as the breaking up of state monopolies into businesses run for profit rather than patronage help to curb many of those issues and also the growing influence of international business practice both by FDI and also returning emigrants with better business savvy (as well as the aforementioned increased access to 3rd level education) which produced a younger generation well capable of tackling the status quo all served to propel us into the 90's and beyond, unfortunately into the other extremes of materialism that we now find ourselves in where so many are full of entitlement and are deludedly living far beyond their means because of it.

I suppose it's a bit ironic that we've gone to a stage from where every one "knew their place" to one where no one seems to be prepared to "know their place" according to their financial circumstances and level of influence
 
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Dr Strangelove said:
I have several generations of civil servants in my family and they all got their jobs via competitive exam. Canvassing is taboo and people’s children are not looked after.

Maybe local authorities are different.
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I think the further away you got/get from the centre the more patronage there was/is.
I've a friend who sits on interview boards for Stat jobs in the 3rd level sector and he said that there's still plenty of it going on.
 
Dr Strangelove said:
I have several generations of civil servants in my family and they all got their jobs via competitive exam. Canvassing is taboo and people’s children are not looked after.

Maybe local authorities are different.
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I can assure you, from personal experience, that nepotism and knowing the right people to secure roles in local authorities is rife, as is still putting completely unqualified people in positions rather than on merit and creating jobs for the specific boy(s) - or girls! . Some day an expose will blow it all wide open or maybe it's so engrained within our institutions that no one would dare touch it. I appreciate (also from personal experience) that the civil service is considerably different, but despite the caveat on all forms, canvassing still unashamedly goes on. Equally with the demise of the the semi states (P&T, etc) in the 80's and their transformation into private companies, the opportunities for stroke politicians to "get ya in there" was lessened, but still not eliminated.
 
Mayo1969 said:
I can assure you, from personal experience, that nepotism and knowing the right people to secure roles in local authorities is rife, as is still putting completely unqualified people in positions rather than on merit and creating jobs for the specific boy(s) - or girls!
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It’s amazing how the internet is full of pseudonymous stories like this. Yet no one ever appeals a failed promotion to the WRC or complains to AGS under the Criminal Justice (Corruption Offences) Act 2018. :rolleyes:
 
Dr Strangelove said:
It’s amazing how the internet is full of pseudonymous stories like this. Yet no one ever appeals a failed promotion to the WRC or complains to AGS under the Criminal Justice (Corruption Offences) Act 2018. :rolleyes:
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As someone who doesn't use a pseudonym here, I'll confine myself to recalling a comment from an old and now deceased friend about the people of the home parish of a well known government minister of the 1970s and 1980s:

"All the tall fellas ended up in the guards and all the short lads ended up in the P&T"
 
There was no earthly reason why in the 1970s a three minute long distance call cost 80 pence for three minutes,
You would be surprised.
It was an analogue system run over copper wire.
Signals didn't require a massive voltage but did need current.
Large battery arrays were still kept.
Digital signal switching was in its infancy.
Actual real telephonists were a thing.
In the early eighties P & T started to install a countrywide network of ducting to create a backbone network for the future of fibre optics.

Rose tinted glasses of our "modern" society and being dismissive of the past is not helpful.
In 50 years time they too will look back on us and laugh.
 
BlackandBlue said:
You would be surprised.
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The hard fact at the time that nobody made long distance (ie outside one's own county) personal calls except where absolutely necessary because they were totally unaffordable to almost all of the population) and the parallel fact that the phone exchanges were barely used at off-peak times (as evidenced by my dad and aunt's experience as outlined above) each suggest a spectacular pricing failure.

Taoiseach Jack Lynch lost his job in 1979 partly because an oil price spike caused the price of a gallon of petrol to exceed the cost of an off-peak three-minute phone call organised by a state phone company in which pretty much everyone was there because of nepotism.

There was no justification for such endemic incompetence and mismanagement.
 
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