Maths Results Crisis 2008

[diarmuidc]

Where did I claim that? If you read my post I said that I never had a need to use the topics I mentioned in a real life situation besides third level education coursework.

Well the inference was that scientists don't need maths. Otherwise why bring up your anecdote?

you need to do as many honours subjects as possible just to achieve those points. Physiotherapy as an example, high points needed - but maths not necessarily important to the study of physiotherapy.

So do foundation level maths and then the honours subjects you are good at. Sounds to me like you are complaining about the points system and not the usefulness of higher level mathematics

 

[MrMan]

No I've never seen a foundation level paper because unfortunately the foundation level paper doesn't do much for the whole points total. This level could also be learned at junior cert level so no need to have it in leaving cert.

 

[diarmuidc]

No I've never seen a foundation level paper because unfortunately the foundation level paper doesn't do much for the whole points total. This level could also be learned at junior cert level so no need to have it in leaving cert.

Your original complaint was that maths was not based on real life. However now, like truthseeker you problem seems to be with the points system not the contents of the maths curriculum

 

[truthseeker]

Well the inference was that scientists don't need maths. Otherwise why bring up your anecdote?

What anecdote?
Where did I infer that scientists dont need maths? I simply stated that it was not of much use to me personally outside of third level education coursework.

So do foundation level maths and then the honours subjects you are good at. Sounds to me like you are complaining about the points system and not the usefulness of higher level mathematics

Im not clear where I am complaining about anything. Higher level maths is useful for certain careers. It is not useful for a lot of people outside of these careers. The way our national education system is set up people need a lot of points for a lot of courses. The only way to achieve those points is to do as many higher level subjects as possible. Therefore, they do higher level maths (because it is not optional so their only choice is higher or foundation level maths) and then find in later life it is not useful to them. Is this concept really so confusing to you?

 

[REXO]

Getting back to my Point basic point

A Primary School Teacher with a C3 in Pass maths does not inspire confidence as a basic teacher.

Regardless of his/her ability in teaching maths, you'll end up with a weaker teacher of all aspects of education , languages and science

I want my kids to be taught by sharp quick intelligent people with a flair for science and languages.

Not someone that might have scratched a bare C3 in PASS.
It doesn't matter if all he/she is teaching basic addition all day.

 

[diarmuidc]

Im not clear where I am complaining about anything. Higher level maths is useful for certain careers. It is not useful for a lot of people outside of these careers. The way our national education system is set up people need a lot of points for a lot of courses. The only way to achieve those points is to do as many higher level subjects as possible. Therefore, they do higher level maths (because it is not optional so their only choice is higher or foundation level maths) and then find in later life it is not useful to them. Is this concept really so confusing to you?

So what's your solution?

I want my kids to be taught by sharp quick intelligent people with a flair for science and languages.

Not someone that might have scratched a bare C3 in PASS.

I agree. However the only solution I see is to pay teachers more to attract the talent to the job and not relax the requirements.

 

[truthseeker]

So what's your solution?

Good grounding in basic maths up to Junior Cert level. Optional subject for Leaving Cert. Let those who either have an interest in maths or need it for later study/work choose it as a subject for Leaving Cert - at higher or lower level depending on their needs (certain courses may require a higher level than others). Let those who are not interested in maths choose a subject they are interested in. Change college entry requirements so that courses that dont require maths for coursework dont require a pass in it at Leaving cert level (either higher or lower).

This way perhaps you may get students studying something like an extra language for example and this could add a string to the bow of a CV. Or someone might study music over maths and turn out to have a hobby that allows them to teach on the side.

Most students only study 7 subjects for leaving cert, I definitely think that overall exam results (points) would be higher if people got to study what they liked, were good at, were interested in etc...which would open more doors for them later.

I was rubbish at languages - but I had no choice but to take up Irish - a total waste of a subject for me - I would have preferred to do something practical like Home Economics so at least I could have learned to cook.
Or (if it was possible) teach people to drive in school - a skill that most people actually need later in life and one that if taught in school might help with road safety later.

 

[MrMan]

Your original complaint was that maths was not based on real life. However now, like truthseeker you problem seems to be with the points system not the contents of the maths curriculum

For someone who I would presume enjoys using logic you do not seem to be using it in this thread. This was my original comlpaint although I think complaint might be stretching it a bit:

Surely there are too many subjects required to have a 'rounded education'. I think the problem a lot of people had with maths was they would learn formulae and the like but not understand why they were actually usuing it and for what purpose. If there was more emphasis on the real life uses of mathemathics then maybe more people would find it interesting and not argue against its practicality.

My point was the current system doesn't so much teach you why its useful to have maths as tell you how to make a formula work. I was looking for a way to make it more interesting, you seem to think that if people don't like maths or can't cope with it they should simply do foundation level, thats hardly progressive thinking.

 

[diarmuidc]

For someone who I would presume enjoys using logic you do not seem to be using it in this thread. This was my original comlpaint although I think complaint might be stretching it a bit:

My point was the current system doesn't so much teach you why its useful to have maths as tell you how to make a formula work. I was looking for a way to make it more interesting, you seem to think that if people don't like maths or can't cope with it they should simply do foundation level, thats hardly progressive thinking.

Less of the childish remarks and deal with the issue.

I don't agree. The problem is not with the maths curriculum . The maths that is thought in higher level leaving cert is the pretty much the same the world over. Complex numbers, trig, calculus, statistics etc form the foundation of the higher standard maths course everywhere. If students are not grasping it, either it's being taught poorly or the students do need to drop to a lower level. There are real life uses for all those maths , just maybe not in your life. Dumbing down a syllabus because of that is not a solution.

 

[GeneralZod]

I don't think we're ever going to make the Newton-Raphson method or similar seem relevant to the average Sean or Mary even though they're the bedrock of science & engineering. You have to choose to study maths at third level before fully appreciating that humanity wouldn't be at our present level of development without it.

I'm sympathetic to dropping Irish as a compulsory subject after the junior cert. Maths at a basic level will continue to be important in peoples lives in a way that Irish is not. Even so we should consider dropping the compulsory leaving cert maths rather than dumbing down the syllabus more than has already been done or reducing the entry standards to 3rd level courses requiring it. They have to keep up with our international peers.

We need to get more people studying higher level maths. At the other end of the spectrum we should be prepared not to force children to attend classes for it.

 

[diarmuidc]

Optional subject for Leaving Cert.

You do that and I can bet a lot more colleges would have minimum entry requirements on their courses.

 

[Ash 22]

Rexo seeing as the entry points for primary teacher training are 465 or so that would give me the impression that you have an intelligent person with a very good leaving cert. Why do you keep thinking of a pass C3 in maths. In the main clever students are good all round and the main run of these possibly have a way higher grade than that and even if some have C3 they can still teach primary level maths and every other subject also to a high standard. They have their college exams to pass and also while they are out on teaching practice are well scrutinised by examiners.
Its very easy to blame teachers but no matter how teachers try some students can not take things in as quickly as others. We were'nt all given the same brains.

 

[Caveat]

Does anyone else think that the samples posted above seem a bit easy for a LC paper?!

(and I neither like nor am particularly good at the subject)

 

[truthseeker]

You do that and I can bet a lot more colleges would have minimum entry requirements on their courses.

If they do they do - not every Leaving Cert student wants to go on to third level education anyway, and for those who do they would be made aware of the consequences of subject choices when they make them.

 

[REXO]

Its very easy to blame teachers but no matter how teachers try some students can not take things in as quickly as others. We were'nt all given the same brains.[/quote]

True, I dont know what i was thinking. However theres no good reason to relax the requirements. Maths should have a certain status given its importance to the future of a knowledge based economy.

I'd like to see what kind of maths the 7 year olds in China are being taught

 

[MrMan]

Less of the childish remarks and deal with the issue.

I don't agree. The problem is not with the maths curriculum . The maths that is thought in higher level leaving cert is the pretty much the same the world over. Complex numbers, trig, calculus, statistics etc form the foundation of the higher standard maths course everywhere. If students are not grasping it, either it's being taught poorly or the students do need to drop to a lower level. There are real life uses for all those maths , just maybe not in your life. Dumbing down a syllabus because of that is not a solution.

I do use it in my working life currently although most of it was taught through 3rd level, but to say dumbing down the syllabus is not the solution when your actual solution is to drop to foundation level is hypocritical.
In 3rd level I had 2 tutors who took different approaches to similar subjects. One took the straighforward route of handing out lists of formula to be learned off and then giving problems to solve and the other spent the first month without any maths and took us through different scenarios that will pop up in our professional lives and gave us the reasoning behind why we would be using certain formula later on. She got great results from the class where as he resulted in causing severe anxiety for everyone. I think it is important to understand why you use maths and therefore you can get over that mental block of 'I'll never need this in real life'.

 

[Thrifty1]

I heard on the news last night about the low percentage of people taking honors Maths. I loved maths in school, up to Junior cert i took honors maths. For the leaving our secondary school didnt have a teacher qualified to teach it so 10 of us had to go to the local boys secondary school for classes.
The teacher there was beyond bad, in his ability to teach Maths but more so his abilty to control his class.
It was so bad, and i was spending so much time and money on grinds to make up for it i went back to ordinary level in the girls school where i had an excellent teacher and got an A1.
I couldnt believe the difference in the two levels, i understand the course work is much different but the difficulty level difference was astounding.

I am always amazed by people hatred of maths, like another poster said its common and acceptable for people to have such a dislike of it, one that i cant understand.
I think if perhaps teachers took some time to describe circumstances where it is used in everyday life it might become more interesting, rather than the common thinking that they will never need it again.

 

[Caveat]

I too disliked maths and I too had a poor teacher (most of the time)

By 5th year I had a good teacher who went some way to encouraging the mindset and approach required for maths - but it was too late to instill any love or fascination with the subject and I still 'dropped to pass'

However, I would have been delighted to have been given given questions like the samples above. I sat my LC 20 years ago and from memory, there was actually very little written english on the paper at all. I genuinely think the examples are easy for a LC paper which I guess points to the 'dumbing down' accusations as I certainly don't think I have improved in the intervening years!

 

[redstar]

If maths was optional at LC I think the vast majority of students would avoid it because its seen as too hard.
These students are still only teenagers, and not yet mature enough to make a decision like that, which could have as yet unknown serious career/job consequences post-LC.
How many of us made decisions at 15 or 16 which we would still make at 23 ?

Maths is a core subject for good reason. Its a cornerstone of modern society. Just because results are poor is no reason make maths optional.
Perhaps there is a need for better guidance from teachers on which students should take pass or higher maths. Students taking higher maths would most likely go on to take third-level courses with a maths content. Everyone else should take pass maths.

I agree that teaching methods should be changed to make maths methods (formulae, theorems etc) more relevant.
Ultimately, maths is about problem-solving, measuring, quantifying, decision-making. All are required skills in 'real-life'.

 

[MrMan]

maybe instead of learning off formulae they could just provide it with the exam paper and let students decide which formula suits which answer. One of the gripes was always learning off formula when in real life people would consult books etc before completing a difficult calculation.

Regarding being too young to make the mature choice, the optional subjects are chosen then so why not maths?