Martin McGuiness for President?

I like McGuiness. Think he would be a fairly decent candidate. Can't see him winning tho.
 
I wouldnt like McGuiness as president this time out. A couple of reasons but the main one is that this President will be in office for 2016, and if its McGuinness then Sinn Fein will hi-jack the centenary commerorations and "the troubles" will be lumped in with 1916 and we, in the Republic, will nearly end up having to either tacitly endorse the Provos, or just ignore the commemorations altogether (both of these would be unfortunate outcomes).

I dont think SF or a SF candidate represent what people in the Republic want to present to the world - of course we'll soon find out, thats democracy - but can you imagine the cringe factor of people refusing to meet him, protests against him etc.

As regards the argument that "if its good enough for the North why isnt it good enough for us" - basically the GF Agreement is a grand compromise to end terrorism (& also we cant ignore SF's electoral mandate with years) but basically there was a gain to be had by having SF inside the tent, much as many people found that hard to stomach. Whereas, in the South, there's no upside for us in having SF in politics at all, so why should we pretend we're happy about them?? If they get votes and elect TD's thats fair enough, again thats democracy, but I wouldnt criticse any other party for not wanting to touch them with a barge pole.

Overall I'm voting Michael D. He has wanted the job from the start, he has a good track record as a politician and on human rights internationally, he has a bit of personality (I cant warm to Mitchell) and he'll be a good statesman.

Not sure why Gallagher or Davis are there. Norris is damaged goods at this stage, why didnt he stay away?, Dana would be ok in a bland kind of way so Ml D is the best of whats going.
 
Betsy Og said:
I wouldnt like McGuiness as president this time out. A couple of reasons but the main one is that this President will be in office for 2016, and if its McGuinness then Sinn Fein will hi-jack the centenary commerorations and "the troubles" will be lumped in with 1916 and we, in the Republic, will nearly end up having to either tacitly endorse the Provos, or just ignore the commemorations altogether (both of these would be unfortunate outcomes)..
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It's only become fashionable for 'you in the republic' to acknowledge the commemorations in the last few years anyway, you'll hardly be missed.
Betsy Og said:
I dont think SF or a SF candidate represent what people in the Republic want to present to the world - of course we'll soon find out, thats democracy - but can you imagine the cringe factor of people refusing to meet him, protests against him etc.
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Who do you imagine will refuse to meet him?:confused:
Betsy Og said:
As regards the argument that "if its good enough for the North why isnt it good enough for us" - basically the GF Agreement is a grand compromise to end terrorism (& also we cant ignore SF's electoral mandate with years) but basically there was a gain to be had by having SF inside the tent, much as many people found that hard to stomach. Whereas, in the South, there's no upside for us in having SF in politics at all, so why should we pretend we're happy about them?? If they get votes and elect TD's thats fair enough, again thats democracy, but I wouldnt criticse any other party for not wanting to touch them with a barge pole...
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It's funny how for years Sinn Fein were told by 'you in the republic' to move on! Stop living in the past! Embrace politics! When they do embrace politics (and have been doing so for the best part of 20 years) Suddenly the past is where we want to be again.


Also, OIRA - Workers Party - Democratic Left - Labour? When did this continuum cease to matter? Or does it just not suit the agenda?

I'm no Sinn Fein supporter but the rank hypocrisy of sections of free state society and media is laughable at times.
 
Bill Struth said:
It's only become fashionable for 'you in the republic' to acknowledge the commemorations in the last few years anyway, you'll hardly be missed.

I refuse to be told by those from a foreign jurisdiction how I should commemorate national events. I think its gas how Nordy Republicans think there are on the road to "greening" the South - we had to listen to them for years because they held the threat of violence, now we just wish they'd go away and paint kerbstones or whatever it is they get their kicks from. Its like in the GAA, if we were waiting on the Ulster Council to move with opinion we'd be 'holding out' as the amateur sports organisation with a harder line than SF.

It's funny how for years Sinn Fein were told by 'you in the republic' to move on! Stop living in the past! Embrace politics! When they do embrace politics (and have been doing so for the best part of 20 years) Suddenly the past is where we want to be again.

If the past was where we wanted to be we'd be arresting people (if not debarred by the GF Agreement), but its a long way down the track to saying we want a former combatant as President. I respect the work that McGuinness has done over the last 20 years, but I think its a bit soon for this.

Also, OIRA - Workers Party - Democratic Left - Labour? When did this continuum cease to matter? Or does it just not suit the agenda?
I dont remember Pat Rabbitte planting any bombs. Pronsias was the last one, as far as I recall, who was in any way involved, and that was donkeys years ago.

I'm no Sinn Fein supporter but the rank hypocrisy of sections of free state society and media is laughable at times.
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Its quite simple, when you have a wildly dysfunctional state you sometimes do things you wouldnt otherwise do in order to improve things. So you have SF in power (yes I know people vote for them but the system is contrived to give power sharing and something for everyone - fair enough). So yes, its fair enough for us to ask Unionists to share power with them even if we dont want to, if Unionism hadnt made such a bags of it for the 65 years or so before their power got taken away, they would never have been put in that position - so suck it up.

In the South we have no reason to give Shinners a free ride, if they want to throw their toys out of the cot when they dont get a cuddle by the 'Free State' media and society, then too bad. Its only a pity that Hume isnt well enough or interested enough to run - Seamus Mallon is another who could have been given an unreserved endorsement.
 
"Its like in the GAA, if we were waiting on the Ulster Council to move with opinion we'd be 'holding out' as the amateur sports organisation with a harder line than SF."

I suspect that this is a baseless comment. Show me one concrete example where the Ulster Council has been at fault in failing to "move with opinion". Under Danny Murphy's stewardship as Secretary, the Ulster Council has been remarkably progressive. It is not their fault if individual counties within Ulster have occasionally opposed various policy positions.
 
T McGibney said:
"Its like in the GAA, if we were waiting on the Ulster Council to move with opinion we'd be 'holding out' as the amateur sports organisation with a harder line than SF."

I suspect that this is a baseless comment. Show me one concrete example where the Ulster Council has been at fault in failing to "move with opinion".
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Most of them refusing to come to Croke Park to meet the Queen??

I thought it was very telling that on his very first day of canvassing McGuinness started slagging off "west-brit" media, hardly reconstructed now and is that really the type of person we want representing a fully inclusive non-sectarian republic?

He tried to change his tack later in the day saying it was an off-the-cuff remark, I don't want my President to be making snide comments.
 
dereko1969 said:
I thought it was very telling that on his very first day of canvassing McGuinness started slagging off "west-brit" media, hardly reconstructed now and is that really the type of person we want representing a fully inclusive non-sectarian republic?

He tried to change his tack later in the day saying it was an off-the-cuff remark, I don't want my President to be making snide comments.
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Agree with this, the man is too volatile, too agressive to be our President. But then again when I look at the list of candidates :(
 
Betsy Og said:
Its quite simple, when you have a wildly dysfunctional state you sometimes do things you wouldnt otherwise do in order to improve things. So you have SF in power (yes I know people vote for them but the system is contrived to give power sharing and something for everyone - fair enough). So yes, its fair enough for us to ask Unionists to share power with them even if we dont want to, if Unionism hadnt made such a bags of it for the 65 years or so before their power got taken away, they would never have been put in that position - so suck it up.

In the South we have no reason to give Shinners a free ride, if they want to throw their toys out of the cot when they dont get a cuddle by the 'Free State' media and society, then too bad. Its only a pity that Hume isnt well enough or interested enough to run - Seamus Mallon is another who could have been given an unreserved endorsement.
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I agree with you re: Hume and Mallon. Both would have made excellent candidates maybe the last time around. However, I don't understand what you mean by giving the shinners a free ride. Even McGuiness critics such as Fintan O'Toole have said they have argued for years to get SF on the politic route. Now they are here they are entitled to nominate someone for president. Maybe it is too soon for someone like McGuiness but it's up to the electorate to decide.
I suspect other parties (particularly FF and LAB) are more worried about conceding ground to SF in the future rather than the past.
 
Betsy Og said:
refuse to be told by those from a foreign jurisdiction how I should commemorate national events..
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When you're standing proudly at the 2016 commemoration you can take comfort in the fact that those men died so that you could refer to some of your fellow Irish as foreigners.

Betsy Og said:
If the past was where we wanted to be we'd be arresting people (if not debarred by the GF Agreement), but its a long way down the track to saying we want a former combatant as President. I respect the work that McGuinness has done over the last 20 years, but I think its a bit soon for this. ..
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It's a pity 'you in the south' haven't shown the same zest in pursuing the misdeeds of the British government in your noble quest for justice.

Betsy Og said:
I dont remember Pat Rabbitte planting any bombs. Pronsias was the last one, as far as I recall, who was in any way involved, and that was donkeys years ago. ..
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Ah, so it's ok if it was donkeys years ago. That clears that up.

Betsy Og said:
In the South we have no reason to give Shinners a free ride, if they want to throw their toys out of the cot when they dont get a cuddle by the 'Free State' media and society, then too bad...
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Free ride? No, some professional journalism without the agenda would do.
 
RonanC said:
And therein lies the problem of Irish politics and the so called democracy we live in.

Fianna Fail have just told their members that they are banned from supporting any Presidential candidate.

The public clearly want certain people to be put forward as candidates but due to the decisions being made by a select few (Micheál Martin), we are left with such a small and uninspiring list to choose from.
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Fully agree with Ronan here

Why couldn't Micheál have said that although FF won't be putting forward a candidate, all FF TD's are free to support who they want.

It's a disgrace
 
Paddy Power

Michael D evens
Martin McGuinness 9/4
Gay Mitchell 4/1

This is real scary. If Martin McGuinness gets in Irish Bond yields will soar. As someone else pointed out this will greatly enhance SF's credibility with the electorate and with some pretty tough austerity ahead, one could see SF really advancing in the 2016 election.

Can't imagine Martin's 10 min chat with Queenie if she accepts Enda's return invite. "Sorry about the ol' uncle and all that...":mad:

Also this is bad for the peace process. Northern unionists have come to acknowledge and appreciate the more broad minded approach of southern nationalists compared to their northern neighbours and the Queen's reception received rave reviews from no less than the Grand Master of the Orange Lodge. If the South put this guy as their head of state this will greatly undo the level of acceptance which the southern state has obtained with northen unionists.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
Paddy Power

Michael D evens
Martin McGuinness 9/4
Gay Mitchell 4/1

This is real scary. If Martin McGuinness gets in Irish Bond yields will soar. As someone else pointed out this will greatly enhance SF's credibility with the electorate and with some pretty tough austerity ahead, one could see SF really advancing in the 2016 election.

Can't imaginne Martin's 10 min chat with the Queen if she accepts Enda's return invite. "Sorry about the ol' uncle and all that...":mad:
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Ah don't worry, she's got plenty to be apologising for as well.
 
dereko1969 said:
Most of them refusing to come to Croke Park to meet the Queen??
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The Ulster Council President Aogan Ó Fearghail represented the Ulster Council at the reception for the Queen in Croke Park. It wasn't his or the Council's fault that several of the individual counties weren't represented. Quite a number of counties in the other provinces weren't there either.
 
DB74 said:
Why couldn't Micheál have said that although FF won't be putting forward a candidate, all FF TD's are free to support who they want.
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Norris has 11 out of the required 20 votes. I think you are going to see FF come under huge pressure over the weekend to facilitate his nomination, particularly with Martin McGuiness's introduction in the race.
 
Bill Struth said:
When you're standing proudly at the 2016 commemoration you can take comfort in the fact that those men died so that you could refer to some of your fellow Irish as foreigners.
That was just to wind you up, since you'd gone all "Free Stater" on it. We did have to jack Articles 2 &3 in order to sort ye out, thereby putting ye beyond the Republic, but sure wasnt it worth it overall.

It's a pity 'you in the south' haven't shown the same zest in pursuing the misdeeds of the British government in your noble quest for justice.
I dont think "us in the South" have ever shirked looking for enquiries or information re, for instance, the Dublin & Monaghan bombings - its just we werent in a position to demand action, not having more direct avenues of "persuasion" open to us......

Ah, so it's ok if it was donkeys years ago. That clears that up.
From Wikipedia (re Prionsias De Rossa): Soon after his sixteenth birthday, in May 1956, he joined the IRA,[2] and was politically active in Sinn Féin from an early age. During the IRA Border Campaign, he was captured training IRA members in Glencree in May 1956, served seven months in Mountjoy Prison and was then interned at the Curragh Camp.[3]

So a few points (and lets assume Wiki is right on this -it tallies with my sense of event) - he was 16, I'm fairly sure he didnt kill anyone, and it was in the 50's. The passage of time is a legitimate factor, if this was 2030 or whatever and "the troubles" were well in the past it could be a different discussion re our Martin. For many, him talking about "the cutting edge of the IRA" is still echoing while he now wants to be our first citizen.

Free ride? No, some professional journalism without the agenda would do.
Since they put Norris on the griddle for writing a letter I think they're not going too hard on Martin to raise questions about his suitability.
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Betsy Og said:
Bill Struth said:
Ah, so it's ok if it was donkeys years ago. That clears that up.
From Wikipedia (re Prionsias De Rossa): Soon after his sixteenth birthday, in May 1956, he joined the IRA,[2] and was politically active in Sinn Féin from an early age. During the IRA Border Campaign, he was captured training IRA members in Glencree in May 1956, served seven months in Mountjoy Prison and was then interned at the Curragh Camp.[3]
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...and Prionsias De Rossa isn't standing for President.
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I don't understand what you mean by giving the shinners a free ride. Even McGuiness critics such as Fintan O'Toole have said they have argued for years to get SF on the politic route. Now they are here they are entitled to nominate someone for president. Maybe it is too soon for someone like McGuiness but it's up to the electorate to decide./QUOTE]

I agree totally with you, one of Jedward could run if they were old enough and had the 20 nominations, and then the voters vote as they see fit. It doesnt mean we cant express an opinion on whether we would like them as president or not. Re giving Shinners a free ride, they seem to be taking great umbrange at the notion that someone might consider a paramilitary past as an issue worthy of examination when considering a presidential candidate.
 
T McGibney said:
"I suspect that this is a baseless comment. Show me one concrete example where the Ulster Council has been at fault in failing to "move with opinion". Under Danny Murphy's stewardship as Secretary, the Ulster Council has been remarkably progressive. It is not their fault if individual counties within Ulster have occasionally opposed various policy positions.
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Well there was strong Ulster opposition to removing the security forces rule, and the opening of Croke Park (ok the opposition wasnt exclusively in Ulster).

Maybe I unfairly mentioned the Ulster Council as such, but put it this way, if Ulster counties were representative of the association as a whole, those changes wouldnt have been passed when they were passed. Maybe they'd be passed by now since SF supported the PSNI, but SF wanted to be the ones to make the step, and the GAA would be left looking like eejits scurrying in after SF - SF like to be seen as the agenda setters, whereas the GAA as a broad based organisation decided they wouldnt wait to be led by relative extremists with limited support in the Republic (especially at the time).
 
Betsy Og said:
Well there was strong Ulster opposition to removing the security forces rule, and the opening of Croke Park (ok the opposition wasnt exclusively in Ulster).

Maybe I unfairly mentioned the Ulster Council as such, but put it this way, if Ulster counties were representative of the association as a whole, those changes wouldnt have been passed when they were passed. Maybe they'd be passed by now since SF supported the PSNI, but SF wanted to be the ones to make the step, and the GAA would be left looking like eejits scurrying in after SF - SF like to be seen as the agenda setters, whereas the GAA as a broad based organisation decided they wouldnt wait to be led by relative extremists with limited support in the Republic (especially at the time).
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Funnily enough, the strongest opposition to the 'Opening up of Croke Park' emanated from Cork. Go figure :) It even cost Christy Cooney the GAA Presidency in 2005.

In relation to the 'admitting UK security forces members' debate, there was indeed strong opposition from within the Ulster counties to that proposal. However, that opposition was most certainly not universal within Ulster. There was also plenty of opposition within GAA county ranks in the 26 counties, enough to scupper moves in that direction on more than one occasion previously.

Characterising these debates as 'backward Ulster GAA v everyone else' is rewriting history.
 
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