Management Fees for apt too high. Entitled to ask for a detailed breakdown? Appeal?

[shesells]

The Management Company is obliged by law to notify all members of the company of an AGM. Ideally it should be a letter to each member but I've seen it in newsletters and on noticeboards in common areas. Effort should be made to contact all members. If this didn't happen you can apply to have the AGM declared invalid.

 

[LeoD]

Thanks. Basically we received a notification for our Development Name Resident's Association AGM which I had no interest in attending but it turned out on the night to be the Development Name Management Company AGM. I believe the mistake was deliberate in an attempt to reduce the number of attendees so that a very dodgy service charge could be pushed through for 2013.

 

[lantus]

Thanks. Basically we received a notification for our Development Name Resident's Association AGM which I had no interest in attending but it turned out on the night to be the Development Name Management Company AGM. I believe the mistake was deliberate in an attempt to reduce the number of attendees so that a very dodgy service charge could be pushed through for 2013.

If you received written notification and other members also received this (i.e. it was across the board and not just limited to you and a one off mistake) then I'd say this was pretty serious. A residents association is an entirely different body to a company and to infer one is the other is quite an omission. Difficult to write off as a genuine mistake. Legally you could infer that a meeting for the company was in fact never even called although that statement does not constitute legal advice.

Section 17 and 18 of the MUD act outlines the other documents that should be provided to members as part of the AGM documentation. It should arrive at least 21 days before any proposed meeting and include the past years accounts and financial report as well as a detailed breakdown of the budget proposed for the coming year. This needs to be approved and voted for by the memebers at the meeting. Did you even get any of this?

So, go and check with some neighbours if you can to make sure it is across the board. if you can request the minutes of the meeting from the company to see what happened, who attended and how business was conducted.

You can contact the ODCE to apply to have the AGM rendered invalid. You will need scanned copies of the documentation issued to you as well as proof (typically) you are a member of the company like a certificate or lease document. If you can get other members to do this independant of you so the ODCE receives multiple complaints then it should hopefully strengthen your case.

Thats damm sneaky indeed.

 

[LeoD]

Thanks. Everyone received the same 'notification'. The reason I ignored it was that apart from the incorrect name, it didn't include:
- an agenda
- descriptions of any special business to be discussed (which was subsequently discussed at the meeting)
- proxy forms
- directors reports
- auditors reports
- accounts
- budget proposal

All it said was that the management company was holding the resident's association AGM (which of course makes no sense). One crappy page with a few lines on it slipped through the letterbox - that's all! The only contact details given was a solicitor's office address (the MC's registered address) so I called them twice to seek clarification on the notice. On both occasions they refused to clarify what AGM was being held - on my first call they didn't know what I was talking about. The impression I got was that the notice had not originated from them (I think the builder is at the heart of all this). Their only response was to say I should go to the meeting. The whole thing was a shambles. I received a copy of the minutes of the meeting afterwards - completely shambolic in keeping with the notification process. I have contacted the management company and requested copies of previously submitted accounts and articles of association - no response. Whatever about the builder trying to pull a fast one, I don't understand how any legal firm can stand over this carry on.

 

[lantus]

Thanks. Everyone received the same 'notification'. The reason I ignored it was that apart from the incorrect name, it didn't include:
- an agenda
- descriptions of any special business to be discussed (which was subsequently discussed at the meeting)
- proxy forms
- directors reports
- auditors reports
- accounts
- budget proposal

All it said was that the management company was holding the resident's association AGM (which of course makes no sense). One crappy page with a few lines on it slipped through the letterbox - that's all! The only contact details given was a solicitor's office address (the MC's registered address) so I called them twice to seek clarification on the notice. On both occasions they refused to clarify what AGM was being held - on my first call they didn't know what I was talking about. The impression I got was that the notice had not originated from them (I think the builder is at the heart of all this). Their only response was to say I should go to the meeting. The whole thing was a shambles. I received a copy of the minutes of the meeting afterwards - completely shambolic in keeping with the notification process. I have contacted the management company and requested copies of previously submitted accounts and articles of association - no response. Whatever about the builder trying to pull a fast one, I don't understand how any legal firm can stand over this carry on.

Looks like you have a good case. Did they vote in a budget? What did the minutes say in regards to this? 60% approval of all the members present? Your Articles can be obtained from the cro for a few quid if you know your company number.

Contact ODCE and highlight failure to provide correct notification of an AGM and failure to provide AGM documentation to members under sections 17 and 18 of the MUD act (they may not consider this last point a company issue related to ODCE enforcement as its a seperate statute and seperate to the companies act so dont be too upset if they disregard it. The notification should be more than enough.)

 

[LeoD]

Did they vote in a budget?

No. They only 'elected' a committee who would take care of things. This committee then met in Jan and decided who would be secretary, chairman, treasurer and PRO (yes, a PRO!!). This committee then decided among themselves what the budget would be for 2013. The whole thing would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious.

 

[lantus]

No. They only 'elected' a committee who would take care of things. This committee then met in Jan and decided who would be secretary, chairman, treasurer and PRO (yes, a PRO!!). This committee then decided among themselves what the budget would be for 2013. The whole thing would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious.

Are you sure this isn't just the RA? treasurer is not a typical ltd company role and neither is PRO. They are common with RA's and other groups though. You can't elect a committe at a company AGM. There are directors from start to finish. You can also obtain the B10 form off the cro site to see who the directors of the company are if your unsure.

Possibly crossed wires here? It does sound like the RA only at play. Possibly organising a budget for things other than what is covered by the company but purely voluntary.

 

[LeoD]

Are you sure this isn't just the RA? treasurer is not a typical ltd company role and neither is PRO. They are common with RA's and other groups though. You can't elect a committe at a company AGM. There are directors from start to finish. You can also obtain the B10 form off the cro site to see who the directors of the company are if your unsure.

Possibly crossed wires here? It does sound like the RA only at play. Possibly organising a budget for things other than what is covered by the company but purely voluntary.

Would a RA require an annual budget of €20,000? I ask that rhetorically btw. The MC are either deliberately or ignorantly fudging the two entities but it's most definitely the MC that are making demands for money based on these meetings. I am aware of the role of each entity - I am a member of a separate, very well run, MC in Dublin. The problem is that the Dublin MC follow procedure by the book so there is never a problem. These other clowns/cowboys I am dealing with now are a problem as I have to figure out what to do when procedure is not followed and the first issue on my to do list was the validity/legality of the 'AGM'.

 

[lantus]

Would a RA require an annual budget of €20,000? I ask that rhetorically btw. The MC are either deliberately or ignorantly fudging the two entities but it's most definitely the MC that are making demands for money based on these meetings. I am aware of the role of each entity - I am a member of a separate, very well run, MC in Dublin. The problem is that the Dublin MC follow procedure by the book so there is never a problem. These other clowns/cowboys I am dealing with now are a problem as I have to figure out what to do when procedure is not followed and the first issue on my to do list was the validity/legality of the 'AGM'.

calculating the budget for any development takes time and effort and requires obtianing quotes and talking to people, getting surveys done etc. It cannot be rustled out of thin air.

If this 'committee' is meant to represent director appointments then the ODCE will also take a dim view.

The names and addresses of the directors are on the CRO site, check if this is the same as the 'people' at the meeting and on the 'committee' and as per the minutes. If its the same then issue all to ODCE and outline the problem with the AGM which may apply like 21 days legal notice in writing provided to all members, wrong name on documentation, improper appointment of directors (no written notice, no proper procedure follwed at meeting etc.) no vote for budget. no bedget or documentation pre meeting.

I would be tempted to call/contact the OMC/RA to see what the score is. i.e. talk to them and see what they tell you.

 

[Luternau]

@ LeoD
What type of development is this? 20k seems on the low side for a large multi unit development with commom areas to maintain, insurance etc.
It would seem procedures are not being followed re AGM notices etc. Are you aware that you could petition for an EGM and remove the builder from the OMC?
Then you the residents, can determine everything. That would seem the best way to move forward with this.

 

[lantus]

@ LeoD
What type of development is this? 20k seems on the low side for a large multi unit development with commom areas to maintain, insurance etc.
It would seem procedures are not being followed re AGM notices etc. Are you aware that you could petition for an EGM and remove the builder from the OMC?
Then you the residents, can determine everything. That would seem the best way to move forward with this.

An EGM can be used to do that but carefully consider that you or other residents will be taking on director positions. You should obtain the members register which is NOT subject to data protection. (again ODCE will move to insist this is provided if current directors dont want to.)

you need to write or contact all the members at least 21 days prior to proposed meeting plus existing directors and auditors and if you are changing the directors write to formally announce such no more than 21 and no less than 3 days before meeting nominated by a member who is fully paid up in writing to the registered company address.

I would read the full ODCE guide to AGM's and EGM's and changing directors and your articles of association. If that seems reasonable you will also need to put together a new budget which will also need to be issued with the meeting notification and approved at said meeting by 60% of members present and eligable to vote.

It might be easier to just take over than trying to teach or coerce the current chancers on how to run a company properly and face years of pain and mental torture through their stupid and crazy decisions.