Management Company never transfered title and is now dissolved

inchbyinch

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43
Hi All,

I own an apartment in an 2 block 16 unit development since 2006 (leasehold). The original management company was set up to cover the freehold title of lands and common areas, however the title of same was never transferred over to the owners of the individual apartments. The developer remained in ownership.

Subsequently, the company was dissolved in 2008. In order to insure the building the owners of the block of 8 that my apartment is in have formed a residents group. We maintain the building/landscape and obtain insurance on our own block. The owners of the other block all obtain individual insurance for each apartment.

We (my block of 8) are now at the initial stages of trying to obtain the title of the freehold as we don't want to re-instate the Man Company as it is not ours to re-instate.

Any thoughts?
is it possible to claim squatters rights?
does the company's claim on the land immediately dissolve once dissolved in the eyes of the CRO?

All help much obligied!

Rgds,
Ed
 
M

Mr Holmes

Guest
If you are certain that the management company owned the lands and not some other third party company and that this company was indeed dissolved, then you may rely on section 49 of the Registration of Title Act 1964. ( See the PRAI web site ) to achieve your goal.
 
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mf1

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4,219
"however the title of same was never transferred over to the owners of the individual apartments. "

This was never, ever going to happen. Title would only be transferred to the management company.

If I understand the original post, the developer company "remained in ownership." As in, the developer had an agreement with the Management Company ( as is usual) to transfer the common areas to the Management Company.

"Subsequently, the company was dissolved in 2008"

Which company? The developer? And/or the Management Company? Both?

"The owners of the other block all obtain individual insurance for each apartment."

I don't think that that is possible - they all only own the air space in side their own unit!

"We (my block of 8) are now at the initial stages of trying to obtain the title of the freehold as we don't want to re-instate the Man Company as it is not ours to re-instate."

I think it is yours - but you might consider setting up a new Management Company.

The following may be of assistance

http://www.mhc.ie/latest/insights/dissolved-management-companies-a-more-efficient-approach

https://www.lawsociety.ie/Solicitors/Practising/Practice-Notes/Effect-of-the-Multi-Unit-Developments-Act-2011-on-existing-developments/#.VqdzOPmLSCg

I don't think any of the units are currently saleable save to a cash purchaser.

OP and fellow apartment owners need serious advice!

mf
 

inchbyinch

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Messages
43
"however the title of same was never transferred over to the owners of the individual apartments. "

This was never, ever going to happen. Title would only be transferred to the management company.

If I understand the original post, the developer company "remained in ownership." As in, the developer had an agreement with the Management Company ( as is usual) to transfer the common areas to the Management Company.
Not quite if my understanding was correct.

The management company was set up and the two directors were two people belonging to the original development company. It is still the registered title holder (according to the PRAI). The shareholding of this company was never distributed to the owners of the individual apartments and so remained in the ownership of another body - to this end I have no idea who those share holders

"Subsequently, the company was dissolved in 2008"

Which company? The developer? And/or the Management Company? Both?

"The owners of the other block all obtain individual insurance for each apartment."

I don't think that that is possible - they all only own the air space in side their own unit!
I agree. Wouldn't like to claim against this.


"We (my block of 8) are now at the initial stages of trying to obtain the title of the freehold as we don't want to re-instate the Man Company as it is not ours to n
re-instate."

I think it is yours - but you might consider setting up a new Management Company.
Again see above, not sure how to find out the ownership of a dissolved company. I have downloaded the constitution from the CRO website and this makes no reference to the apartment holders or any reference to its ownership.

Thank you for the links below. I'll read for any light they might shed.


The following may be of assistance

http://www.mhc.ie/latest/insights/dissolved-management-companies-a-more-efficient-approach

https://www.lawsociety.ie/Solicitors/Practising/Practice-Notes/Effect-of-the-Multi-Unit-Developments-Act-2011-on-existing-developments/#.VqdzOPmLSCg

I don't think any of the units are currently saleable save to a cash purchaser.

OP and fellow apartment owners need serious advice!

mf
Where would one turn, is it a solicitor first or valuer auctioneer
 

lantus

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293
Biggest concern is that you don't have any insurance. I have heard of insurers who will take money from apartment owners but you'd need to see a successful claim being made on what is often a six and often seven figure payout on property that no one has any legal claim to.

Who or what has taken out the policy?
 

inchbyinch

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Messages
43
All eight of the apartment owners in our block are signatories on the one insurance policy. This has been the case for about 6 years. There hasn't been a claiming those years.

The apartment not selling has brought this to a head.
 

so-crates

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1,755
I don't think you quite understand why the management company should exist (based on your response to mf1). Title will never be transferred to individual owners because the property is shared between you. It can only be passed to an entity that owns the whole property - hence the reason why you all become members of the management company on purchasing an apartment. It requires a collaborative approach to manage the property. The company is made up of the leaseholders of the property. When it is initially developed the developers generally set up the company and act as the first directors, when the units are sold, you as an owner become part of the company and it is up to you collectively to manage the property, including insurance, repairs, etc. The developers eventually sell off their stock and no longer are involved in the management company.

In effect you have put in place an informal management "company" for your specific block since you collaborate in purchasing insurance. However you really need to get the management company proper in place. Title cannot pass to your ... collective? ...co-operative? The apartment owners as a whole (not per individual block) need to have a management company. You need good legal advice at this stage, none of the properties are saleable without a management company in place. An auctioneer would be of no use at all. You will also need a meeting of all (or as many as you can get) apartment owners in order to discuss this in common and start the process of getting a company established. I'd probably get the advice first and then arrange the meeting. This will not be resolved quickly.

Aside from insurance, the other big consideration is probably a sinking fund. Have you an informal arrangement in place for that too?
 

inchbyinch

Frequent Poster
Messages
43
I don't think you quite understand why the management company should exist (based on your response to mf1). Title will never be transferred to individual owners because the property is shared between you. It can only be passed to an entity that owns the whole property - hence the reason why you all become members of the management company on purchasing an apartment. It requires a collaborative approach to manage the property. The company is made up of the leaseholders of the property. When it is initially developed the developers generally set up the company and act as the first directors, when the units are sold, you as an owner become part of the company and it is up to you collectively to manage the property, including insurance, repairs, etc. The developers eventually sell off their stock and no longer are involved in the management company.

In effect you have put in place an informal management "company" for your specific block since you collaborate in purchasing insurance. However you really need to get the management company proper in place. Title cannot pass to your ... collective? ...co-operative? The apartment owners as a whole (not per individual block) need to have a management company. You need good legal advice at this stage, none of the properties are saleable without a management company in place. An auctioneer would be of no use at all. You will also need a meeting of all (or as many as you can get) apartment owners in order to discuss this in common and start the process of getting a company established. I'd probably get the advice first and then arrange the meeting. This will not be resolved quickly.

Aside from insurance, the other big consideration is probably a sinking fund. Have you an informal arrangement in place for that too?
I think I'm more informed now. The steps I'm panning on now with my solicitor:
1) set up a new company with directors and register with the CRO. This company should comprise of 16 shares one for each apartment owner.
2) Prove that this Company satisfies the requirements of the MUDS act and apply to the chief states solicitor for title of the land to be transferred to the new company.

Does this sound right?

Thanks for all the replies.

Ed
 

peteb

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Messages
1,649
All eight of the apartment owners in our block are signatories on the one insurance policy. This has been the case for about 6 years. There hasn't been a claiming those years.
Signatories or policy holders? You would need all 8 people to be policy holders. so the cheque was made out to all parties and not just one, who can run with the money in the event of a claim!
 

lantus

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Messages
293
You need to reinstate the existing company as this will be as per your lease. I would budget 12-15k for this process. Its a high court job.

I would budget same for lands to be transferred. Could be less if all documents are easily available and everything goes well.
 

Biscuit

New Member
Messages
1
Hi I know this is an old post but I wonder did you resolve this issue as I am in a very similar position. Also who was your insurer as I may need to explore this option also.
Many thanks
 
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