Legal bedroom size

I would agree that it's not appropriate where he was having one night stands but if he's in a relationship, then sooner or later the child will have to understand that they kiss and sleep together. It's not an ideal situation, but in the best interests of the child's relationship with the Dad some kind of compromise shoudl be reached if at all possible. Otherwise one risks the relationship withering to nothing which is quite common in divorce situations particulary on the side of the father.

If the Dad were not to take care not to disturb or upset the child, then there is something wrong with him, but this is an assumption on the OP's part.
 


I have offered a compromise. He wants to collect her at 7pm on saturday night and drop her back at 8am on monday morning.
I said he could collect her at 8am on sunday morning and bring her home at 8pm sunday night.
Or his partner could sleep in the spare room on the saturday night as she wouldn't be there on the sunday night.
Or if his housemate weren't there for the weekend the child could sleep in her own room.

Bearing in mind this is once a month only. Thats all he's offering, the once a month I mean.
He didn't even acknowledge the offer, never mind consider negotiations. I have offered him many compromises. He wants it his way.
I should also point out that this isn't an issue about travelling to collect her etc. He lives in the same area as me, about 2 mins from my house.


If there was a spare room for my child I wouldn't have a problem with her knowing her dad was sharing a room with the girlfriend. I was the one who told her they were! However knowing and seeing are two different things.

I fail to see the difference for the child initially as to whether the girlfriend is a long term partner or a one night stand. Essentially she is sharing a room with a stranger.

After a few meetings then fine, no problem. But not the first time.

It's not like I'm applying this standard to him alone. I also apply it to my friends, family and myself.
For eg I wouldn't approve of my daughter sharing a room with my best friend/sister/myself and our boyfriends if they weren't known to the child.
 

I don't meant to sound harsh, but when one splits up and a child is involved then difficult choices are going to have to be made in the interest of a child. In an ideal world we would all have lovely homes and bedrooms for our kids, our ex would hide their other partner and pretend they don't exist.

We don't live in ideal worlds so we can make compromises even faced with an uncompromising ex if it is in the interest of the relationship that child has with the father. This man is a grown adult and a father to a young child. If he thinks it's ok for the child to stay in the room than I would say that that is his call, unless I could see a clear and present danger to the child from that decision of course. So far that has not been demonstrated. There are far worse things than a child to know his dad sleeps with someone else. I would rather that than the child to not know his dad. You have an unenvious task in making your decision, but the same faces all of us who split up. All that is important is what is good for the child.
 

Child had serious emotional difficulties after the split, mostly relating to her father. She was in counselling for a while and I am basing my decisions on the recommendation of same.

What I believe as the main carer of the child, the one who dealt with these problems at the time, the one who sought professional help for the child and attended the counselling sessions with her and also dealt with the aftermath of these session, is that nothing good can come from child being relegated to a side cubicle in favour of dads girlfriend. child was having nightmares upon suggestion of meeting dads girlfriend that dad and girlfriend wouldn't play with her and then that dad got cross with her, put her on a chair outside and forgot about her and child slept there all night while dad and girlfriend watched tv in the house. *edited to add that this didn't actually happen, it was a dream the child had*
Just a little insight into the mind and sentiment and feeling of the child.

This is my enviable task, weighing up the self esteem issues vs the desire she has to see dad more.
His enviable task is saying to the girlfriend "would you sleep in the spare once a month while child is over until she gets to know you better?".
 
We don't live in ideal worlds so we can make compromises even faced with an uncompromising ex if it is in the interest of the relationship that child has with the father.

I agree with this sentiment Bronte - but in the situation the OP has outlined I dont believe the scenario being outlined by the father IS in the best interests of the child, but rather in the best interests of the fathers new relationship.
 
and then dad got cross with her, put her on a chair outside and forgot about her and child slept there all night while dad and girlfriend watched tv in the house.

You mean a chair outside the house?
 

Apologies for the late reply Ailbhe.

There may be two sources indicating what is acceptable in this case.

A) The first area of law is the Building Control Act and its attendant regulations.
The normally tell you how to build as opposed to what you can build but I note the following:

Under the Building Regulations Part F references are made in the Technical Guidance Document as follows:

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1647,en.pdf

“habitable room” means a room in a dwelling
used for living or sleeping purposes but does not
include a kitchen having a floor area of less than 6.5
m2;


And also:

Habitable Rooms
1.5 In a habitable room other than a utility
room, a kitchen or a room containing a kitchen, the
following provision for ventilation should be
adequate:
(a) a ventilation opening suitable for background
ventilation having a total area not less than
6500 mm2, and
(b) a ventilation opening suitable for rapid
ventilation having a total area of at least 1/20th
of the floor area of the room.

And also

Where a kitchen or utility room has a floor area of
less than 6.5m2 and does not contain an openable
window or external door, e.g. an internal nonhabitable
room, provision of either c(i) or c(ii) above
should be adequate. However, if mechanical extract
ventilation is provided, it should include an automatic
15 minutes overrun, (after switch-off) or be
controlled by humidistat. Provision should also be
made for air supply to each room e.g. a 10 mm gap
under the door or equivalent.

Other comments are made in relation to ventilation via another room and ot a court q.v.

The area of 6.5sqm may be significant but so also may the ventilation provisions.

The fact that this will now be an inner habitable room also raises issues in relation to means of excape from fire under TGD B:

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1640,en.pdf

General Provisions for Dwelling Houses

1.5.8 The following general provisions apply to
dwelling houses.
1.5.8.1 Inner rooms - An inner room is where the
access to that room is through another room. A
habitable room should not be an inner room unless
it is located at basement, ground or first storey and
is provided with a window or door suitable for
escape or rescue in accordance with the provisions
of 1.5.6.

1.5.8.2 Windows for escape or rescue -
Windows may provide an alternative means of
escape or may be used for rescue purposes in
dwelling houses. Guidance in relation to such
windows is given in Paragraph 1.5.6. There are
specific situations, e.g. as described in Paragraphs
1.5.2, 1.5.3 and 1.5.7.6, where windows in dwelling
houses should comply with the guidance given in
Paragraph 1.5.6 in this regard.
As a general provision, in addition to the specific
situations referred to above, all bedrooms in
dwelling houses, other than bedrooms with doors
that give direct access to the outside at ground level,
should comply with the provisions outlined in
Paragraph 1.5.6.


And S 1.5.6 says:

Windows for Escape or Rescue

1.5.6 Windows may provide an alternative means
of escape or may be used for rescue purposes in
dwelling houses of limited height. As an alternative, a
door which gives direct access to a balcony or roof,
which is suitable for rescue by ladder or for escape
may be used. Where provision is made in this subsection
for windows for these purposes (see
paragraphs 1.5.2, 1.5.3, 1.5.7.6 and 1.5.8.2), such
windows should comply with the following:
(a) The window should have an openable section
which can provide an unobstructed clear open
area of at least 0.33 m2 with a minimum width
and height of 450 mm (the route through the
window may be at an angle rather than straight
through). The opening section should be capable
of remaining in the position which provides this
minimum clear open area.
(b) The bottom of the window opening should be
not more than 1100 mm and not less than 800
mm (600 mm in the case of a rooflight) above the
floor, immediately inside or beneath the window
or rooflight. As an exception to the general
guidance in TGD K (Stairways, Ladders, Ramps
and Guards) that guarding be provided for any
window, the cill of which is less than 800 mm in
height above floor level, guarding should not be
provided to a rooflight opening provided in
compliance with this paragraph.
(c) In the case of a dormer window or rooflight, the
distance from the eaves to the bottom of the
opening section of the rooflight, or, where the
window is vertical, the vertical plane of the
window, should not exceed 1.7 m measured
along the slope of the roof.
(d) The area beneath the window externally should
be such as to make escape or rescue practicable.
For example,
(i) where there is a clear drop from a window in
an upper storey or attic conversion, the
ground beneath the window should be
suitable for supporting a ladder safely and be
accessible for rescue by the fire services or
others.
(ii) Where there is a roof, balcony or canopy
below a window, it should be structurally
adequate to support those using the window
for escape or rescue.
(e) The opening section of the window should be
secured by means of fastenings which are readily
openable from the inside and should be fitted
with safety restrictors. Safety restrictors can be
either an integral part of the window operating
gear or separate items of hardware which can be
fitted to a window at the time of manufacture or
at installation. Restrictors should operate so that
they limit the initial movement of an opening
section to not more than 100 mm. Lockable
handles or restrictors, which can only be
released by removable keys or other tools,
should not be fitted to window opening sections.


As you can see its not just a simple matter to make a wardrobe into a habitable room, never mind a bedroom.

-------------------------------------

B) The second area of law is the Planning and Development legislation.

Under the law, the local authority has the right to make provision for development standards in development plans.

Development Plans set the terms of reference for five year periods defining what you can build as opposed to how to build it.

Apartment sizes, room sizes, room heights and so on all may be defined under the development plan requirements and the plan for your are might yield some useful information.

For example the Dublin City Development Plan at:

[broken link removed]

Par 15.9.3 requires 6.5 sq.m. for a single bedroom.

I suspect most other development plans would require this also.


-------------------------------------

Another issue also arises under the planning law - changing a wardrobe accessed off a bedroom space into a bedroom.
Normally accessing a bedroom through another room only occurs via a lounge, kitchen or dining space - not through another bedroom.
Bedrooms are private places and while in olden days familes all lived in one room and learn their sex education by watching and listening - that's not on these days.
I think it is inappropriate for a young girl to be deliberately placed in a situation where she becomes more likely to find her father engaged in sexual intercourse at some point.
Such interruptions may occur in relationships where children live in houses with separately accessed bedrooms, but the intended location requires access via the father's room on every occassion.

-------------------------------------

This raises issues of increasing the number of bedspace in the house and whether this requires permission or is covered under Section 4(1)(h) of the Act.
Bedspaces may be used as generators of residential density and car space requirements in development plans and this should be checked.
The proposed use, however inappropriate for other reasons is for an occasional sleepover and might not be seen as permanent.
From the father's point of view, the local authority and possibly would probably not want to be seen as draconian.

-------------------------------------

Finally as your daughter is becoming older it may be deemed to be inappropriate for her to be sleeping in the same bed as her father.
Certainly it creates a dependency which can be cloying from the adult point of view and may restrict the emotional development of the child.
The preferred situation is for the child to sleep separately, even if this means sleeping on a sofa-bed in the living room, which could be an "adventure".
Our own son recently had a much-vaunted sleepover at his grannies with his cousins at Christmas and they chose to sleep on the sofas and had great crack.

I trust this is of some use.

ONQ.
 
You mean a chair outside the house?

Re-read post, it was a nigtmare child described which involved her dreaming that he put her on a chair outside the house whilst he and his partner remained in the house, forgetting they had left her outside.

He wouldn't do that. I was stating that this was how the child was viewing and worrying about the situation of meeting the new partner.


Thanks ONQ, as per those guidelines the room is not deemed habitable due to it's dimensions. Ventilation is adequate. Window wouldn't be big enough to allow rescue though so as an inner room may not be safe. Not a problem if ex was asleep in next room but if he were downstairs it would be.
 

But you have said in previous posts that you don't consider this a separate room , it's part of the bedroom.

You can't have it both ways.
 
But you have said in previous posts that you don't consider this a separate room , it's part of the bedroom.

You can't have it both ways.

I consider it a room as in it has 4 walls and a door. Much the same as I consider an en-suite, a toilet or a utility room a separate "room".
I don't consider any of these suitable for a child to sleep in though.

Would you consider an en-suite a separate room or a part of the bedroom?
It's a bit of a grey area no? Unless someone is trying to turn it into a bedroom.
 
Thanks for the clarification Ailbhe, I had nightmares about this story last night and apologies for misreading your post. I've also been rethinking it.

Can I ask why the dad lives in a shared house, is it a money issue? I know as a mother that if I had custody of my child on occasion and had to live on my own that I would rent a place on my own. Even if he had a one bedroom flat he would have the living room separate.
 


He lives in the house we bought together a couple of years ago. He insisted myself and the child move out and he remained there but the mortgage, bills etc were too much for him so he rented out one bedroom and is trying to also let the other.
House is up for sale.
 
Worthy of note: The OP has posted elsewhere that this man is not the child's father - rather a former partner who was with her for the early years of the child's life.

Now I think because of this he is acting out of love for the child - remember he has no obligation! - and she is trying to impose her law where she has no business. If she is unhappy let her not send the child over.

I also think a room with radiator and window of nearly 2x2m is just shy of my box room. Calling it a wardrobe may be as disingenuous and inflamatory as me calling my box room a dressing room. It's a small room.
 


I didn't ask for advice about anything other than the legal size of the bedroom. I never make a secret of the fact that my ex is not my daughters biological father however it is not relevant to the legal bedroom size question which is why I posted it in "ask about law" rather than the way in which I posted about it on "parenting".
This is a legal advice site, not a personal issues one. You made your feelings clear on the personal thread I am sure, and I probably responded to you there so why you feel the need to try and discredit my posts here is beyond me.
I posted the size of the wardrobe in my OP so I am not being disingenious or inflammatory. I would call an en-suite and en-suite, or a utility room a utility room. The plans of the house state that the room is a "walk in wardrobe". The child calls the room a wardrobe, her father calls it a wardrobe, I call it a wardrobe. I fail to see your point on that.


As for the legal obligation I am blue in the face stating that it is he who wants to see the child and not me pushing him. But yes, this was a man I met while pregnant and became romantically involved in after the child was born. We moved in together at his request when the child was 7 months old and broke up when the child was 5 and a half, therefore he is the childs father in her eyes.

So spannerhead (apt name), is there anything else of my personal life you'd like to drag up from other boards that are irrelevant to this thread? Any other "tales" you feel you'd like to share? Worth pointing out that on the more "personal" thread it was I who said upfront that he was not her biological father as I didn't wish to mislead anyone.
I didn't feel the need to post that on here as it was a question about the legalities of putting a child in a room not designed as a bedroom when there is an alternative.
If you wish to take me up on any aspect of whether my ex is a saint for seeing a child he chose to rear for almost 6 years, or if I'm a terrible witch for following professional advice I recieved from a counseller due to my childs emotional issues following the split (nice how you left that bit out!), then might I ask you to take it to the other thread rather than taking bits of that thread out of context to make me look bad.
Thanks.


Also
spannerhead said:
If she is unhappy let her not send the child over

As per the other thread thats percisely what I did. She will not be spending nights there when the new partner is there as I don't wish for her to be in the wardrobe or sharing a room with him and his partner until my daughter knows her better. As he is refusing to take her now during the day in order for his partner to get to know the child, the I don't envisage this ever happening.
You suggest that I let him do whatever I want with my child while he has her even if it goes against professional advice, or just cut him off completely even though he wants to maintain a relationship as does the child. Either way I'm wrong to some people so I can only do what I feel is best.
 

Course its her business, its her child.
The OP is acting out of love to encourage the relationship at all - she doesnt have to let him see her.

I also think a room with radiator and window of nearly 2x2m is just shy of my box room. Calling it a wardrobe may be as disingenuous and inflamatory as me calling my box room a dressing room. It's a small room.

Rubbish, the OP has described it as a walk in wardrobe off a bedroom - there is nothing inflammatory about calling a wardrobe a wardrobe.
 

+1

Because the man is not the child's biological father DOES NOT mean that the OP has to accept any crumbs he's willing to throw her.
 


And your point is? I don't understand what exactly you are trying to say. I can do whatever I want, you are correct. But there can often be a difference between what I want and what is best.
I get muddled sometimes as there is a lot of tension between myself and ex and I'm never sure if I'm doing the right thing or if I'm letting my own feelings cloud that. Hence the thread on boards which specifically asked was I over reacting. Bar one or two posters, it was generally accepted I wasn't over reacting.

This post was in relation to how best to reason with my ex as I said in the other thread, he has gone into shut down, has decided I am being unreasonable and refuses to discuss the issue at all.
I wanted some sort of technicality for him as he deals best with that as opposed to the emotional impact on the child. I'd be more of the emotional empathetic type. He is more factual and thinks our decisions now will not affect her in the future.
So I wanted to approach it from an angle he would understand as the emotional angle didn't work. Legal, fire safety etc, he would be more likely to listen to that than to impact on the child and psychologists advice.
He thinks "child is fine, whats the problem" but he wasn't the one dealing with the fall out of the breakup and listening to the child put herself down and cry herself to sleep at night so he doesn't get my point of view at all. That was a terrible time, seeing her in so much pain and I never want to return to that, which is why I am putting my foot down about anything I deem detremental to her progress.
I also feel that cutting him off would be detremental too. Hence the quandry.
 

Ailbhe, I think you may be as well not to engage with our 4 posts friend, Spannerhead. Boards.ie are still closed for the moment, they'll be open soon. I think Spannerhead is trying to get a rise out of you.