Legal apprenticeship: any tips on trying to find a trainee solicitor job
- Thread starter Gabrielle
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why do you insist on unnecessarily scrutinizing people's posts ?? you have yet to contribute anything useful to this thread, but insist on making smart remarks on my personality when a) you dont know me and b) you base you assertion on hearsay.(that will certainly make YOU a great lawyer!!-sorry for the low-blow..but had to say it ) Find something better to do with your time, for your own sake...and trust me, unfortunately and maybe even to my own demise i do have a firm grip on reality...
i heard from a solicior who knows someone who works there, that its "not a very healthy environment for someone to train in"..because if you're not doing secretarial work, you're working on a land dipute whilst listening to your colleague talk about medical negligence to his/her client over the phone...im sorry, call me what you like...but i worked way too damn hard during my degree to settle for that...and please stop with the smartass comments...they're not doing anyone any good..thanks.
I am not directing these comments particularly at LDGantly (though he\she might do well to take on board some of what follows); I really do have sympathy for those seeking a training contract.
BUT, I would like to make a few points to disgruntled graduates:
1. If you are looking for a position, you really need to do a little better than a generic cover letter addressed to Dear Sir\Madam, or even worse, To Whom It May Concern. Personalise your letters.
2. I know that spelling and grammar are probably not as important to society at large as they used to be. I know that 'text-speak' and the informality of email have completely changed the landscape in which we use the written word. But lawyers deal in words. It is simply not acceptable for a would-be lawyer to use bad grammar, bad spelling, bad punctuation or slang. You might take the attitude that you can be 'normal' and informal in your everyday usage, but that you will easily shed this skin and write in very proper terms from 9-5 each day, when you have to do so for a living. It doesn't work like that. If you intend to make a living working with words and language, then your desire to get it right every time should permeate most of what you do. The practice of Law is not merely a job: it is a profession and to some extent a vocation. If you do not believe this to be true, then you need to question yourself as to whether the Law is actually the right career for you. Make sure your spelling, grammar and general usage of language are exemplary.
3. If you examine the numbers, it will be clear that small and medium sized firms around the country account for the vast bulk of apprenticeships. There seems to be a huge emphasis placed on securing interviews with the large (and some medium sized) Dublin firms. This emphasis seems to me to be somewhat misplaced. Apply to rural firms.
4. I did not have much trouble securing an apprenticeship, for the very good reason that this was in the days when the training contract might be summarised as "you don't have to work and we don't have to pay you". However, I did start as a newly qualified lawyer in 1992, when the country was still in recession and jobs were very thin on the ground. My CV ran to 2 pages only. I put it through 60+ revisions before I was happy with it. I don't see this level of obsessive attention to detail in any of the CVs which I receive from would-be apprentices. Spend more time polishing your CV and give attention to detail.
5. You can't fake confidence; So don't let yourself be so dismayed by the difficulty in securing an apprenticeship. You have already been through a tough Leaving Cert to secure entry to college. You have achieved a good degree. You have passed the difficult FE1 exams. Some of you have been busy helping the starving mountain children of Nepal and so on. You are all very well qualified. It is not your fault that the economy is in tatters. Chin up. Sorry if that sounds glib - but I believe it to be good advice.
BUT, I would like to make a few points to disgruntled graduates:
1. If you are looking for a position, you really need to do a little better than a generic cover letter addressed to Dear Sir\Madam, or even worse, To Whom It May Concern. Personalise your letters.
2. I know that spelling and grammar are probably not as important to society at large as they used to be. I know that 'text-speak' and the informality of email have completely changed the landscape in which we use the written word. But lawyers deal in words. It is simply not acceptable for a would-be lawyer to use bad grammar, bad spelling, bad punctuation or slang. You might take the attitude that you can be 'normal' and informal in your everyday usage, but that you will easily shed this skin and write in very proper terms from 9-5 each day, when you have to do so for a living. It doesn't work like that. If you intend to make a living working with words and language, then your desire to get it right every time should permeate most of what you do. The practice of Law is not merely a job: it is a profession and to some extent a vocation. If you do not believe this to be true, then you need to question yourself as to whether the Law is actually the right career for you. Make sure your spelling, grammar and general usage of language are exemplary.
3. If you examine the numbers, it will be clear that small and medium sized firms around the country account for the vast bulk of apprenticeships. There seems to be a huge emphasis placed on securing interviews with the large (and some medium sized) Dublin firms. This emphasis seems to me to be somewhat misplaced. Apply to rural firms.
4. I did not have much trouble securing an apprenticeship, for the very good reason that this was in the days when the training contract might be summarised as "you don't have to work and we don't have to pay you". However, I did start as a newly qualified lawyer in 1992, when the country was still in recession and jobs were very thin on the ground. My CV ran to 2 pages only. I put it through 60+ revisions before I was happy with it. I don't see this level of obsessive attention to detail in any of the CVs which I receive from would-be apprentices. Spend more time polishing your CV and give attention to detail.
5. You can't fake confidence; So don't let yourself be so dismayed by the difficulty in securing an apprenticeship. You have already been through a tough Leaving Cert to secure entry to college. You have achieved a good degree. You have passed the difficult FE1 exams. Some of you have been busy helping the starving mountain children of Nepal and so on. You are all very well qualified. It is not your fault that the economy is in tatters. Chin up. Sorry if that sounds glib - but I believe it to be good advice.
I have been wondering lately about the big Irish Legal firms - In 2005 they were creaming it amongst the top earners in Europe, and with it they expanded and appointed new staff and promoted more Staff to Partners, they moved into, or are in the process of moving in to swanky new Offices on the Docks, spending freely on huge profits made during the Celtic Tiger. I have alot of friends who worked in Engineering or Architectural Practices who last year felt very much immune and protected against the slowdown in Construction in 2007 purely because they work with bluechip consultancies, some have been let go and other hold little if any hope for 2009 now that the full effects of Recession have taken hold.
I know some solicitors will say oh our unfair dismissal departments and insolvency department are out the door busy and we're not that exposed to construction, maybe so but I think the overall picture for these firms must be bleak as the problem is much wider than just construction and these firms have expanded hugely in the last few years they will now I believe contract to the size they probably were in the 80's...correct me if I'm wrong and if so where are the fees going to come from to salary all the staff?
I know some solicitors will say oh our unfair dismissal departments and insolvency department are out the door busy and we're not that exposed to construction, maybe so but I think the overall picture for these firms must be bleak as the problem is much wider than just construction and these firms have expanded hugely in the last few years they will now I believe contract to the size they probably were in the 80's...correct me if I'm wrong and if so where are the fees going to come from to salary all the staff?
Thank you MOB. Some very good advice from someone who has obviously been through the process. The only issue i would take with that is that some of us are only interested in training in Dublin based corporate/commercial firms...so its pretty hard to keep the chin up in the current climate. I know you might say to look outside the box and that there are other firms out there...but its pretty hard to just accept (at least for now) that its nigh-on impossible to get a training contract with the larger firms at the moment. Especially so when one has had his/her heart and soul set on working in the coroporate/commercial field for years and has worked so very hard to obtain a good degree. Thanks for the advice again
There has certainly been a lot going on here over the last day or so.
MOB thank you for the advice. I think a lot of people are frustrated by the process of getting an apprenticeship, especially to secure one in one of the corporate firms. There are some peope that genuinely want to practice corporate law but I question how many people apply annually for these places with no interest whatsoever in this area. One of my best friends falls into this category - she developed an overnight interest in this area. This really makes me angry. But c'est la vie.
I do think in the current economic climate it would be foolish of anyone to put all their eggs in the one basket and rely on getting an apprenticeship in Ireland or abroad. this is a global recession afterall. While I intend on finishing off the FE-1s, i won't see it as the end of the world if I don't get to qualify. While I would be disappointed if that materialises, I have to be practical and get a career underway regardless. There are other ways of getting onto the corporate ladder and taking the back door into law or working in an area where a legal background is beneficial.
I have my Plan B and C ready and I'm concocting Plan D too. My advice is for others to start doing the same
MOB thank you for the advice. I think a lot of people are frustrated by the process of getting an apprenticeship, especially to secure one in one of the corporate firms. There are some peope that genuinely want to practice corporate law but I question how many people apply annually for these places with no interest whatsoever in this area. One of my best friends falls into this category - she developed an overnight interest in this area. This really makes me angry. But c'est la vie.
I do think in the current economic climate it would be foolish of anyone to put all their eggs in the one basket and rely on getting an apprenticeship in Ireland or abroad. this is a global recession afterall. While I intend on finishing off the FE-1s, i won't see it as the end of the world if I don't get to qualify. While I would be disappointed if that materialises, I have to be practical and get a career underway regardless. There are other ways of getting onto the corporate ladder and taking the back door into law or working in an area where a legal background is beneficial.
I have my Plan B and C ready and I'm concocting Plan D too. My advice is for others to start doing the same
Eeeek things are geting heated!!
LDGantly, as far as I know the second round inerviews for Arthur Cox take about a week and a half yes?Well from what I can remember of last years process, on the very last day of interviews-everyone who was successful will get a phonecall that evening. If you don't get the phonecall then its bad news im afraid!
Mag-Im afraid england is looking like a serious possibility-cheers for the info-only thing is that the fees and accomodation could be pretty harsh-will have to organise a meeting with the Bank to see how much of a loan I can get-Oh sometimes I wonder if its worth it!
Mob-brill advice particularly since you've been through all this before.However, I'd like to point out that many people including myself are applying to the Dublin Law firms because of the possibility of fees being paid for by the firm. I am from Cork and ideally would love to get a training contract in Cork but very few Cork frms pay for fees and thus the training contract would be futile cos I couldnt pay for the Blackhall course itself!!
LDGantly, as far as I know the second round inerviews for Arthur Cox take about a week and a half yes?Well from what I can remember of last years process, on the very last day of interviews-everyone who was successful will get a phonecall that evening. If you don't get the phonecall then its bad news im afraid!
Mag-Im afraid england is looking like a serious possibility-cheers for the info-only thing is that the fees and accomodation could be pretty harsh-will have to organise a meeting with the Bank to see how much of a loan I can get-Oh sometimes I wonder if its worth it!
Mob-brill advice particularly since you've been through all this before.However, I'd like to point out that many people including myself are applying to the Dublin Law firms because of the possibility of fees being paid for by the firm. I am from Cork and ideally would love to get a training contract in Cork but very few Cork frms pay for fees and thus the training contract would be futile cos I couldnt pay for the Blackhall course itself!!
Kiki - i'm not absolutely certain but i think that there is a HEA grant available for Blackhall and that it will cover most, if not all of your fees. It's means tested of course but if you just assess yourself and don't bring parents into it, it might be worth a shot. at least it might help in the eventuality that you have to pay.
I really think that if you are serious about getting a training contract you really have to accept that you may have to pay the fees yourself. Very few firms will pay the fees for you now and i suspect that quite a few who start on PPC1 next September will have agreed to do their apprenticeships without being paid.
For those who are currently looking for training contracts it is time to ask yourself the hard questions. Can you afford the €13,000 approx fees to the Law Society? Can you afford to go nearly 3 years on low pay or no pay? Can you afford to invest that much time and money without any guarantee of a job at the end of the road.
I think that those qualifying over the next few years will really have to really want it to get through. If you want it bad enough you will find a way to get a contract and pay your way. As stated above you can get a grant that will go some way towards the fees. You can get tax relief on the fees paid. Some will be lucky enough to get a contract with a firm that will pay fees for them.
I hope this is not the case. As I understand it, the current Law Society Rules are that:
1. You must pay a certain wage to an apprentice before they go to the Law Society
2. You do not have to pay their tuition fees, but you must pay them a reduced wage while they are away at the Law Society
3. You must pay a still modest, but higher wage when they return to the office
4. You must pay a reduced wage again when they go back for the second Law Society course
5. After the second course, you must pay circa €20k until they qualify.
I am aware that there is some scope to avoid element 1 and perhaps element 2 of the above, but I do not believe it is possible these days to have an unpaid apprentice. Certainly I hope it is not possible.
Irishlawgirl
Registered User
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I was under the impression that firms can not pay for b'hall and not pay the apprentice while they're there either.
Also - got a PFO from Beauchamps.
Got a acknowledgment letter from ODSE (sent application in last Friday). they seem organised!
Also - got a PFO from Beauchamps.
Got a acknowledgment letter from ODSE (sent application in last Friday). they seem organised!
D
dublin_bhoy
Guest
hi guys, first of all it is a great and very informative thread!
got a pfo from a+l goodbody in the post there this morning. I got through to the final round of interviews with arthur cox though - sometimes you would wonder what the criteria is for some firms?! does the fact i have not started my fe1s yet come into play with any firms do you think?
on the arthur cox question - they told most people in interview they won't get back until the 15th - however i heard as kiki referred to above that get back after they finish interviewing by phone, which would mean they informed those succesful last night as interviews finished yesterday. has anyone heard anything?! tension is killing me!
got a pfo from a+l goodbody in the post there this morning. I got through to the final round of interviews with arthur cox though - sometimes you would wonder what the criteria is for some firms?! does the fact i have not started my fe1s yet come into play with any firms do you think?
on the arthur cox question - they told most people in interview they won't get back until the 15th - however i heard as kiki referred to above that get back after they finish interviewing by phone, which would mean they informed those succesful last night as interviews finished yesterday. has anyone heard anything?! tension is killing me!
i haven't heard anything from A&L, Beauchamps or ODSE. I'll have to stalk the postman again. best of luck to those who have interviews.
if i get anymore, i will definitely be doing the Carr Communications prep course. it's really good, from what i've been told anyway.
if i get anymore, i will definitely be doing the Carr Communications prep course. it's really good, from what i've been told anyway.
Irishlawgirl
Registered User
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- 91
A&L letters are out?! Oohh I'm now thinking not knowing was slightly better - at least I was in with a chance! (kinda - in my mind at least!).
As for Dublin Bhuoy - no fe1's doesn't bother the firms as these a'ships are not until 2010 and they don't expect you to fail them to be honest!
As for Dublin Bhuoy - no fe1's doesn't bother the firms as these a'ships are not until 2010 and they don't expect you to fail them to be honest!
Dublin Bhoy, since the interviews for AC are now finished perhaps it will be friday that the successful applicants get their phonecall. I think the interviews finished on a friday last year so maybe thats why they made the phonecalls straight away before the week was out!I wouldnt give up hope till friday anyway!
PFO from A&L today too-. On the other hand im graduating from my llm next week so at least this year wasnt a total waste!
PFO from A&L today too-
. On the other hand im graduating from my llm next week so at least this year wasnt a total waste!