Leaving Cert Maths getting easier?

[trajan]

@Duke

I know damn all about annuities and so forth so I can't opine on it. In my own time, a math A grade offered the prospect of a good job straight from school from Irish Life as an actuary trainee. We all thought it was about probability and statistics but I guess there's analysis involved too.

Yes, NI education - even today - is daft. Even on a building site in Terenure after my 1st year a fella from NI called Denis said no change would occur till children were schooled together. I know it happens in the odd integrated NI school but the norm remains segregation of catholics and protestants. Ironically both catholic and protestant schools must today also be catering for the tens of thousands of Indian, Pakistani, Afghani and Chinese/Hong Kong/oriental kids in their catchment area too since the latter do not have their own segregated schools. The tide has come in around NI segregation and they do not see it. It's a bit like Terence O'Neill's grand idea to drain Lough Neagh to form a new county: a great plan that worked every way bar its hydrology.

You can argue about Shakespeare as a required part of the English literature course: certainly doing two Shakespeare plays, a tragedy and a tragi-comedy as we did it in ROI for many decades, is going to give students a disgust of The Bard of Stratford. But if all physical sciences students exercise an option to drop languages and other subjects (or do them to pass level in ROI) in their senior cycle we will have few people who can communicate properly in English or any other language even on the subject of their own field. What's more, their social intercourse will revolve around casual banter or the brass tacks of our existence. While the latter will get them a spouse, it won't build any meaningful social bridges with people from all walks of life - an essential capability for people trying to get co-operation at work and in the community.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

@trajan Yes, when I joined Irish Life in Dublin as a trainee actuary the great majority of my colleagues (only one was of the other gender - they tell me they were regarded as not suitable for sums in the ROI) were straight from school having aced LC sums. I was about 4 years older, one extra year at secondary and 3 at QUB. I was not convinced it made me a more rounded person, maybe I did smoke some weed but I never inhaled. Some did drop out, just as teenagers do at Uni, but those that stuck the course generally qualified at a younger age than moi (I did French to O-level). It rankled with me a bit that age for age these LC guys were way ahead of me on the career ladder, an advantage which I think lasted at least 10 years.
Of course these days the ROI is coming down with Uni actuarial degrees and how I would have loved that option in my day - of course it does mean you are not cured of looking at your own shoes when chatting at some social function .

 

[Purple]

@trajan Yes, when I joined Irish Life in Dublin as a trainee actuary the great majority of my colleagues were straight from school having aced LC sums.

It's interesting that you really need a 3rd level degree to be considered for a clerical job in the Public Service but you don't even need a Leaving Cert, let alone a 3rd level degree, to train to become a Solicitor or Barristers.

 

[trajan]

@Duke of Marmalade

But surely the LC freshers weren't paid the same a QUB math graduate ?

And didn't the LCs have to undertake some sort of Institute of Actuaries correspondence course ?

At worst your position should have been the equivalent of say a BBS and a good honours LC taking chartered accountancy articleship at the same time, i.e. the BBS would be given grace for attaining the first half of the accountancy training while the LCs would have to article for longer.

 

[trajan]

It's interesting that you really need a 3rd level degree to be considered for a clerical job in the Public Service but you don't even need a Leaving Cert, let alone a 3rd level degree, to train to become a Solicitor or Barristers.

It would be fascinating if true.

But I specifically asked the Law Soc and Irish Bar that question, i.e. if a person can train for solicitor without a law degree and I was told no - though in the old days one could do that.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

But surely the LC freshers weren't paid the same a QUB math graduate ?

Yes, I forgot that but those who were at my age were earning a lot more and in quite senior roles.

And didn't the LCs have to undertake some sort of Institute of Actuaries correspondence course ?

We all had to do that though I think the LCs had also to sit a preliminary exam.

At worst you position should have been the equivalent of say a BBS and a good honours LC taking chartered accountancy articleship at the same time, i.e. the BBS would be given grace for attaining the first half of the accountancy training while the LCs would have to article for longer.

BBS? Well no, we had no edge except not having to do that preliminary exam.

 

[trajan]

BBS - bachelor of business studies. A typical entry qual for chartered accountancy.

So you were put on the same Institute of Actuaries final exam ramp as the LCs ?

You aren't saying much about salary comparison . . .

 

[Purple]

It would be fascinating if true.

But I specifically asked the Law Soc and Irish Bar that question, i.e. if a person can train for solicitor without a law degree and I was told no - though in the old days one could do that.

I know a guy who left school (with no state exams done at all) and trained as a Barrister. He's currently practicing. There's a podcast somewhere in which he was interviewed but I knew him when he was working as a general operative in my sector.
He did the diploma in legal studied in Kings Inns.

Edit:

Becoming a Barrister​

Admission to the degree of Barrister–at–Law professional course is by Entrance Examination, which usually takes place in August in each year. To be eligible to apply to sit this examination, an applicant must hold either an approved law degree/approved postgraduate diploma or the Diploma in Legal Studies from King’s Inns.


In order to become a Solicitor one needs to pass the FE1 exam. There's definitely no requirement for any degree. I don't know who answered your questions but they gave you a bum steer.

An NFQ Level 5 diploma is all that's required to train to become an Accountant. No degree required there either.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

You aren't saying much about salary comparison . . .

I was paid more than the 17 year old LC joining at the same time as me, but those who were my age and had been training to be an actuary for 4 years, and earning a few bob all the while, were well ahead of me in salary and role.
There were different cultures North and South. In the North if you were in the 25% that passed the 11 plus and went to grammar school you were likely to progress to Uni 7 years later. Either for economic or cultural reasons even bright kids in the South went straight to earning a few bob after LC.

 

[trajan]

I was paid more than the 17 year old LC joining at the same time as me, but those who were my age and had been training to be an actuary for 4 years, and earning a few bob all the while, were well ahead of me in salary and role.

Presumably the contemporaries (21-22) who'd joined after LC had by then got MIFoA ?

That would explain the initial pay-gap, if pay gaps related to qualification supported competency. When you got this MIFoA say 2 years (?) later they had 2 years increment on you. I suppose this pay-gap remained till your broader math foundations enabled you to get subsequent higher quals and associated promotions faster than them.

Either for economic or cultural reasons even bright kids in the South went straight to earning a few bob after LC.

Remember back in 1960s, 70s, even 80s the farmers' kids had a much easier time getting college grants than PAYE earners - it was scandalously unfair. Also families were bigger then and women had a full-time job housekeeping. In addition, most families not involved in education and those without a degree holder among their own siblings would not be in a rush to send their children to college. Special scholarship exams were often kept secret by students hoping to minimise competition. Often the eldest child of a large family was rushed into a good post-LC job like civil service, ESB, bank, insurance, library service, etc so the younger ones would have a better chance at college education. While many of these jobs theoretically allowed time off for a degree, the person concerned tended to stay at home and contribute a chunk of their salary to their parents' to raise the rest of them and "set an example" for them. I myself almost joined the UK merchant marine as an engineer officer cadet rather than go to college - a career guidance teacher deterred me from it thankfully.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Presumably the contemporaries (21-22) who'd joined after LC had by then got MIFoA ?

As a very rough rule of thumb a LC would take 6 years to qualify whilst a grad would take 5 years.

 

[Protocol]

Yes, maths has been dumbed-down.

I spoke to somebody who marked the LC OL maths.

"You wouldn't believe what they don't know"

An answer that I would give 2/10 marks, he is forced to follow the marking scheme, and give 4/10.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

An answer that I would give 2/10 marks, he is forced to follow the marking scheme, and give 4/10.

It's the relative points that count. In boxing and other competitions you see the judges marking the rounds 10/9. A clear win but looks close. I guess that is what is happening here. Look, I only missed by 20 points.

 

[joe sod]

The German math girls won't put Paddy to shame. But the Middle East girls are seriously ahead of all European counterparts, Paddy included.

It's a wonder that hasn't translated into more progressive and modern societies then as normally happens with high level educational attainment? Maybe in certain isolated cases girls are attaining high education levels in the middle east but it's hardly widespread given the religious fundamentalism that dominated there

 

[Purple]

It's a wonder that hasn't translated into more progressive and modern societies then as normally happens with high level educational attainment? Maybe in certain isolated cases girls are attaining high education levels in the middle east but it's hardly widespread given the religious fundamentalism that dominated there

Girls there don't study the Humanities. That is the education that leads to a more progressive society. An education in Math(s), Physics, Engineering, Medicine etc teaches you a technical skill. A Humanities education (should) teach you how to think and to question the world around you. Learning Shakespeare will change a society more than learning Algebra.

A few thoughts on the topic;

The word Algebra comes from the book Al-Jabr, which loosely means balancing, written by Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizm, from Central Asia, in the 9th Century. He was a polymath and knew the value of a well rounded education. It would be interesting to know if standards were also higher in his time since only the elite were exposed to that sort of education. That leads me to a question; is it better to dumb things down a bit in order to expose more people to a subject? There are probably more people doing Masters degrees now than were doing basic degrees 30 years ago.


My son is studying History in UCD. I was shocked by how basic and simplistic the content was in first year but maybe that's because I'm not just out of school and have had an interest in the subject for 30+ years.

So to the original question and the initial posters; is Leaving Cert Maths getting easier or does present day you find it easier than 17/18 year old you?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

So to the original question and the initial posters; is Leaving Cert Maths getting easier or does present day you find it easier than 17/18 year old you?

Good point. Maybe not easier in content but certainly as @Protocol observes easier marked.

 

[Peanuts20]

Maths has certainly changed. Working with the kids during lockdown and for the life of me, I had no understanding or comprehension as to what they were doing for long division, it was just totally bizarre to me.

As having someone in LC this year, I don't know if the Leaving in general has been dumbed down. Shorter questions, less writing, more choices of books, plays etc. No prose essays but more focus on aural and oral in languages.(which is an upside). In general, it seems more forgiving these days but maybe that is me showing my age.

And if kids have gone through TY, then it is probably a case that they are a year older and wiser then when we did a 5 year cycle in secondry school. Big fan of TY if the school does it properly, I know that is not always the case but where my kids go, they took it very seriously and it really helped them grow up a bit. Work experience was great and a bunch of them did a thing at DCU where it was a 1 day a week first year uni course and it was a great introduction to Uni for them.

The whole CBA thing for junior and leaving cert will have to be revisited given the ability of AI to write something in a few seconds.

 

[trajan]

So to the original question and the initial posters; is Leaving Cert Maths getting easier or does present day you find it easier than 17/18 year old you?

My impression was that the Math course got broader (and in fairness, offered more choice) and harder until that real sticker LC math paper about 10 years ago. The one that had some students give up after 10 minutes in horror.

Then they brought in the dumbed-down project math despite so many lifelong math teachers objecting to it.

Now it seems we really are a few pegs down from where we were.

 

[trajan]

My son is studying History in UCD. I was shocked by how basic and simplistic the content was in first year but maybe that's because I'm not just out of school and have had an interest in the subject for 30+ years.

I wonder if Prof Ferriter's influence is involved here ? I mean, Judging Dev with all its graphic content was hardly a seriously critical work, was it ?

 

[Purple]

I wonder if Prof Ferriter's influence is involved here ? I mean, Judging Dev with all its graphic content was hardly a seriously critical work, was it ?

I think Diarmaid Ferriter has had a very positive influence on the popularity of Irish history but is, like anyone else, a product of his environment. I don't think Dev gets a fair hearing from anyone. In the context of a legacy he made the critical mistake of living too long. All that being said I haven't read the book so can't comment on it.