Leaving Cert Maths getting easier?

Duke of Marmalade

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Maynooth University have just produced a fantastic archive of Leaving Cert maths back to 1925. This is the first question on the 1925 Applied Maths paper.
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At first blush this looks harder than Q1 on today's papers. But maybe it is just the quaint Imperial System. Unbelievably, the US is still almost the only country to still use this system.
And tables of logarithms were provided :)
 
I always thought leaving cert mathematics was not thought to a higher enough level in order to move to university level mathematics even 30 years ago, the gap was too big and thats why many first year university students were failing their first year in technical subjects. I think the A levels are alot better in this regard as they allow students to specialise in subjects they are good at and does not have the big gap to third level standards
 
As someone who was bad at the "humanities" and thrived with the A-level Big Four: Pure and Applied Maths and Chemistry. I have to agree with you.
Though I think A-levels have been dumbed down considerably as well. I think as many as 10% of those who these days attempt the Big Four get straight A's.
They do say that one of the reasons the Yanks like to do business here is our high educational standard.
 
I always thought leaving cert mathematics was not thought to a higher enough level in order to move to university level mathematics even 30 years ago, the gap was too big and thats why many first year university students were failing their first year in technical subjects. I think the A levels are alot better in this regard as they allow students to specialise in subjects they are good at and does not have the big gap to third level standards
Agree re the gap, despite a respectable B in higher level maths in LC, found it very tough going to get a pass in 1st year as an ancillary subject .
 
Agree re the gap, despite a respectable B in higher level maths in LC, found it very tough going to get a pass in 1st year as an ancillary subject .
I think part of the issue is some teachers focus on doing well in the LC and teach how to answer LC questions. Students can answer LC questions very well but may not have an understanding of what they're doing. I've seen lots with LC higher level maths struggle in college, while some with ordinary level get on fine.
 
I think part of the issue is some teachers focus on doing well in the LC and teach how to answer LC questions. Students can answer LC questions very well but may not have an understanding of what they're doing. I've seen lots with LC higher level maths struggle in college, while some with ordinary level get on fine.
I think Maths is one subject where you can't fake it, while you might be able to "learn" how to answer some questions without really understanding it, that might get you a pass but it definitely won't get you a high grade .
Third level mathematics is a different level to LC and the issue is that the gap in some cases is too big, thats why Universities need to put on foundation level courses in maths to bring students up to the required level since leaving cert maths has been dumbed down over the decades. Also the level of maths of some teachers in secondary school is not high yet they are still able to teach it
 
Also the level of maths of some teachers in secondary school is not high yet they are still able to teach it
Having shared a class in college with two students who previously thought LC maths, I was shocked at how bad they were at maths, both failed end of term maths exams. But for a LC topic, they could do examples from memory. They could get away with teaching it as they had the answers. I'd say if they were questioned on why something was done a certain way, they'd fob the student off.
 
As someone who went through the NI A-level system I always wondered about this gap risk with LC done at a year younger (I think) and on a diluted syllabus. But if a gap exists are not the universities to blame?
 
As someone who went through the NI A-level system I always wondered about this gap risk with LC done at a year younger (I think) and on a diluted syllabus. But if a gap exists are not the universities to blame?

I came across an interesting "review" of LC maths and where it ranks relative to other High School mathematics exams. Skip to 2:08 for the ranking (it's in the middle).

Also the level of maths of some teachers in secondary school is not high yet they are still able to teach it

I believe from friends in the profession, there is a real difficulty in recruiting Maths/Physics teachers.

I have to say, the skills of the graduates entering my profession is really high. If there is dumbing down of mathematical skills at LC level, it does not manifest by the time they graduate. Relatively, we score very well in maths and science in the PISA exam and have the highest number of STEM graduates in the EU27, including the highest number of female STEM graduates.

 
I came across an interesting "review" of LC maths and where it ranks relative to other High School mathematics exams. Skip to 2:08 for the ranking (it's in the middle).



I believe from friends in the profession, there is a real difficulty in recruiting Maths/Physics teachers.

I have to say, the skills of the graduates entering my profession is really high. If there is dumbing down of mathematical skills at LC level, it does not manifest by the time they graduate. Relatively, we score very well in maths and science in the PISA exam and have the highest number of STEM graduates in the EU27, including the highest number of female STEM graduates.

In my perception the level of difficulty is to some degree psychological.
The school curriculum suddenly seems not so hard when you're presented with a higher level in university.
When you perceive something to be the apogee it can attain an aura it doesn't merit.
 
I had a German girlfriend when I was a teenager (more than 30 years ago). She said that she was surprised by how easy higher level leaving cert maths was when compared to the German equivalent.
 
In my perception the level of difficulty is to some degree psychological.
The school curriculum suddenly seems not so hard when you're presented with a higher level in university.
When you perceive something to be the apogee it can attain an aura it doesn't merit.
My son is studying History in UCD and I’m constantly surprised by how easy it is but I’ve been reading history books for over 30 years. I’m sure I would have struggled with it when I was 19 or 20.
 
Firstly, a warm word of thanks to @Marmie for his research into past LC exam papers.

But note that the fore-attached paper from 1925 is actually an APPLIED MATH paper - not MATH.

The 1925 math paper is here. I think it's tough enough for its times.

That said, math is evolutional like languages, sciences and humanities. Even the core topics common to those times and now can have different prevailing perspectives in the respective eras. Needless to say, new topics have been added as new math fields emerge or governments are shocked into action on the math curriculum - c.f. the Sputnik Terror causing the "New Math" curricula in the 1960s.

Many of the posts suggest that the LC course under-prepares students considering taking math in university. I accept that such preparation is one consideration. But LC math curricula also need to consider such things as developing a basic understanding of what math actually does, as well as the practical benefits it brings, in the minds of those LC students wanting to pursue non-math studies in university, those going directly to work and those who may need/want to assume caring or management responsibilities in the home. We are all the better off for knowing the importance of our neighbour's skills even if we cannot share them - and vice versa. Naturally this appreciation takes a few years more of real interactive experience to mature in us - but the knowledge underlying it has been lain in at school.

Some people have suggested bringing in an A-Level type system to Ireland. In that way, a student planning to become a doctor/scientist/engineer would drop (or go to pass level?) things like English, Irish, modern/ancient languages, history, economics, etc.

I think such a move would only offer false efficiencies (to the student concerned, to the school timetable and resource management, to the universities, to immediate post-university employers) at the expense of an actual diminution of the true educational level (philosophical as well as vocational) of people across Irish society. While some parents will have lots of books around the house and promote learning of anything for its own sake, many more will not: to the latter, school is just a means to a job. As an eng postgrad in UK I was shocked to find during quizzes that don-level academics were ignorant of major novels and even well-regarded movies. Few of my UK peers had any viable grasp of French or German - a foolish thing in a country so dependent on exports of industrial goods and technology. Few looked beyond their class at school or university for a wife - surely a telling sign of a sense of inadequacy in general conversation. The only ones with some practical skills were those whose fathers were in related trades or had related hobbies.

I think that the smaller a country is the more important it is for us to appreciate the talents and skills of our fellow citizens. A broader education may well add an extra year to a primary degree course and make 1st year Math lecturers work a bit harder. But the societal benefits are well worth this as this broad & comprehensive (academic, practical, physical and cultural) secondary education system is what makes us value and appreciate each other at work and in the community.

By the way, I see old Jim Simons (of Medallion Funds) was Chair of Math at Stonybrook 1968-1978. This covered the period when the late and great math educator, Prof Donal O'Donovan of TCD, taught there. Both were innovators in math education in universities. This world is at a loss for both their departures.
 
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Some people have suggested bringing in an A-Level type system to Ireland. In that way, a student planning to become a doctor/scientist/engineer would drop (or go to pass level?) things like English, Irish, modern/ancient languages, history, economics, etc.
yes exactly and I agree with that, I would have preferred to concentrate on maths , science economics and drop irish or some other subject. I think if leaving cert mathematics as is now the case is not taught to an adequate level in order to move to university level mathematics, engineering and science courses then the department should be honest about it and not be dropping students in at the deep end when they choose those subjects at University. There should be a choice to study another maths subject at leaving cert that does bring them to University level. I for one did not get a thorough maths education at LC I only really understood the fundamental concepts by 2nd year in University and I bet many leaving cert teachers do not understand it themselves even though they are teaching it.
 
@joe sod

There is no doubt about it but I and many many school pupils of my school benefitted from having a fantastic physics, math and applied math teacher. A Christian Brother and a truly christian brother to us all. Quite a few engineers/scientists/doctors would never have made it to college without his thorough mincing up of the subject and laid-back communication of it.

It seems that your class were by no means as fortunate as ours. Naturally, I agree with the need to get good teachers in all subjects and remove the types who just like the secure job, the long holidays and the rest of it. Today's math graduate market with its comparatively huge salaries offered by the financial sector makes getting good math teachers all the harder. Analysts in the financial sector are soon on €100,000 a year plus bonuses and perks that are so hard for young people to resist. Shucks, even the gambling sector pays math graduates a helluva lot better than teaching.

But I do not think that an A-level system would be right for Irish society as a whole. It would free up more time for study of a student's best subjects and maybe some time for sport/leisure. But there would be educational/developmental losses in not doing English, French/Spanish/German, History or Economics, etc. Certain universities have general matriculation criteria that might exclude a candidate without a language. And doing a different class of subject does stretch the mind to the ultimate benefit of one's work in science. But the greatest benefit I think is in the personal and social development arena. In language subjects you have to engage and listen, get out of yourself and evaluate the objective worth of what you read and write. One subject I would add to the Irish curriculum is philosophy. It's normal in France, Spain, across South America even. Make no mistake about it, philosophy is a serious subject and not the whimsical musings it is often portrayed as. It might also help students with their own philosophical development - iron the folds from their own ideas.

To compare the LC with the A-level system, just reflect on the fact that many Irish students go to UK universities and do degrees in 3 years compared to 4 here. This would not be possible if the LC standard was significantly behind that of the A-level standard.
 
In my perception the level of difficulty is to some degree psychological.
The school curriculum suddenly seems not so hard when you're presented with a higher level in university.
When you perceive something to be the apogee it can attain an aura it doesn't merit.

The real hard thing about the LC exam is the real stress (one's own and that sensed from the others around) and this fellow clearly hasn't sat down in the exam hall with the rest of them to get a feel for this.

Of course, neither would he be marking his own elegant answers and awarding himself 298/300.

I can still remember Maths Part I, our first exam. I spent a share of the first half-hour thinking of my mother and father's slaving to put me there, our many rows and a biblical sense of obligation to them and their work. No doubt she was at home praying through the morning chores and I was picking up some psychic signals. I guess the other guys must have had similar or equivalent sentiments.

It's no joke, the Irish Leaving Cert. Doing a paper at home as a confident 20+ graduate with a clock beside you is a doodle by comparison.

That sort of rubbish shouldn't be on YouTube.
 
I had a German girlfriend when I was a teenager (more than 30 years ago). She said that she was surprised by how easy higher level leaving cert maths was when compared to the German equivalent.

The German math girls won't put Paddy to shame. But the Middle East girls are seriously ahead of all European counterparts, Paddy included.
 
@trajan interesting thoughts and like you I prefer math to maths.
The 1925 LC math paper has analysis type questions which for me was a first year Uni subject. As an actuary, I find Q5 very loosely stated. An expectation of life of 12 years could vary from certain death in 12 years time to say 1/2 chance dying tomorrow and 1/2 chance surviving 24 years. It is in fact much more complicated. An annual annuity value depends on the actual annual expectations.
I hated English literature. The Tempest, what’s the point? Do Russians, Chinese etc. study the Bard? They all study math.
As an A-level student in NI I was segregated from the other gender which is half the population. I was also segregated from 2/3rds of the population on religious grounds - so much for education developing the person.
Maybe some folk go to Uni because of thirst for knowledge but I think I am in the majority that it was with future career in mind though I had no idea I would finish up calculating annuity rates
 
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