Leaving Cert Maths getting easier?

@Duke

I know damn all about annuities and so forth so I can't opine on it. In my own time, a math A grade offered the prospect of a good job straight from school from Irish Life as an actuary trainee. We all thought it was about probability and statistics but I guess there's analysis involved too.

Yes, NI education - even today - is daft. Even on a building site in Terenure after my 1st year a fella from NI called Denis said no change would occur till children were schooled together. I know it happens in the odd integrated NI school but the norm remains segregation of catholics and protestants. Ironically both catholic and protestant schools must today also be catering for the tens of thousands of Indian, Pakistani, Afghani and Chinese/Hong Kong/oriental kids in their catchment area too since the latter do not have their own segregated schools. The tide has come in around NI segregation and they do not see it. It's a bit like Terence O'Neill's grand idea to drain Lough Neagh to form a new county: a great plan that worked every way bar its hydrology.

You can argue about Shakespeare as a required part of the English literature course: certainly doing two Shakespeare plays, a tragedy and a tragi-comedy as we did it in ROI for many decades, is going to give students a disgust of The Bard of Stratford. But if all physical sciences students exercise an option to drop languages and other subjects (or do them to pass level in ROI) in their senior cycle we will have few people who can communicate properly in English or any other language even on the subject of their own field. What's more, their social intercourse will revolve around casual banter or the brass tacks of our existence. While the latter will get them a spouse, it won't build any meaningful social bridges with people from all walks of life - an essential capability for people trying to get co-operation at work and in the community.

@trajan Yes, when I joined Irish Life in Dublin as a trainee actuary the great majority of my colleagues (only one was of the other gender - they tell me they were regarded as not suitable for sums in the ROI) were straight from school having aced LC sums. I was about 4 years older, one extra year at secondary and 3 at QUB. I was not convinced it made me a more rounded person, maybe I did smoke some weed but I never inhaled. Some did drop out, just as teenagers do at Uni, but those that stuck the course generally qualified at a younger age than moi (I did French to O-level). It rankled with me a bit that age for age these LC guys were way ahead of me on the career ladder, an advantage which I think lasted at least 10 years.
Of course these days the ROI is coming down with Uni actuarial degrees and how I would have loved that option in my day - of course it does mean you are not cured of looking at your own shoes when chatting at some social function .

Duke of Marmalade said:

@trajan Yes, when I joined Irish Life in Dublin as a trainee actuary the great majority of my colleagues were straight from school having aced LC sums.

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It's interesting that you really need a 3rd level degree to be considered for a clerical job in the Public Service but you don't even need a Leaving Cert, let alone a 3rd level degree, to train to become a Solicitor or Barristers.

@Duke of Marmalade

But surely the LC freshers weren't paid the same a QUB math graduate ?

And didn't the LCs have to undertake some sort of Institute of Actuaries correspondence course ?

At worst your position should have been the equivalent of say a BBS and a good honours LC taking chartered accountancy articleship at the same time, i.e. the BBS would be given grace for attaining the first half of the accountancy training while the LCs would have to article for longer.

Purple said:

It's interesting that you really need a 3rd level degree to be considered for a clerical job in the Public Service but you don't even need a Leaving Cert, let alone a 3rd level degree, to train to become a Solicitor or Barristers.

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It would be fascinating if true.

But I specifically asked the Law Soc and Irish Bar that question, i.e. if a person can train for solicitor without a law degree and I was told no - though in the old days one could do that.

trajan said:

But surely the LC freshers weren't paid the same a QUB math graduate ?

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Yes, I forgot that but those who were at my age were earning a lot more and in quite senior roles.

trajan said:

And didn't the LCs have to undertake some sort of Institute of Actuaries correspondence course ?

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We all had to do that though I think the LCs had also to sit a preliminary exam.

trajan said:

At worst you position should have been the equivalent of say a BBS and a good honours LC taking chartered accountancy articleship at the same time, i.e. the BBS would be given grace for attaining the first half of the accountancy training while the LCs would have to article for longer.

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BBS? Well no, we had no edge except not having to do that preliminary exam.

BBS - bachelor of business studies. A typical entry qual for chartered accountancy.

So you were put on the same Institute of Actuaries final exam ramp as the LCs ?

You aren't saying much about salary comparison . . .

trajan said:

It would be fascinating if true.

But I specifically asked the Law Soc and Irish Bar that question, i.e. if a person can train for solicitor without a law degree and I was told no - though in the old days one could do that.

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I know a guy who left school (with no state exams done at all) and trained as a Barrister. He's currently practicing. There's a podcast somewhere in which he was interviewed but I knew him when he was working as a general operative in my sector.
He did the diploma in legal studied in Kings Inns.

Edit:

Becoming a Barrister​

Admission to the degree of Barrister–at–Law professional course is by Entrance Examination, which usually takes place in August in each year. To be eligible to apply to sit this examination, an applicant must hold either an approved law degree/approved postgraduate diploma or the Diploma in Legal Studies from King’s Inns.


In order to become a Solicitor one needs to pass the FE1 exam. There's definitely no requirement for any degree. I don't know who answered your questions but they gave you a bum steer.

An NFQ Level 5 diploma is all that's required to train to become an Accountant. No degree required there either.

trajan said:

You aren't saying much about salary comparison . . .

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I was paid more than the 17 year old LC joining at the same time as me, but those who were my age and had been training to be an actuary for 4 years, and earning a few bob all the while, were well ahead of me in salary and role.
There were different cultures North and South. In the North if you were in the 25% that passed the 11 plus and went to grammar school you were likely to progress to Uni 7 years later. Either for economic or cultural reasons even bright kids in the South went straight to earning a few bob after LC.