Lame attempt to fluff us up for an atm withdrawal tax

[RonanC]

Two main reasons Irish people use ATM's alot is

1. Many places refuse to accept Laser or Credit card payments - such as, take aways, hair dressers, small local shops, food stalls, fast food outlets and so on.

2. A lot of ATM's will only give you minimum of €50 which means you have to withdraw this amount, and therefore the amount everyone withdraws over a weekend increases dramatically. In Germany, if you wish to withdraw €50 from an ATM, it will give you the €50 in change, ie; 2x€5, 2x€10 and 1x€20. It is still the same €50 but it also means you can withdraw €10 if you wanted.

 

[Complainer]

If Ahern & Co really wanted to end tiger kidnapping perhaps they could introduce a special sentence of 20 years (no early release) for tiger kidnappings instead?

Do you really think that tiger kidnappers do a reasoned 'cost-benefit' type analysis before deciding whether to proceed with their adventures?

 

[dereko1969]

I don't see how €500 a year could cover all the minor purchases (a newspaper, a sandwich, a box of disprin, a couple of bits from Tesco) that people make in a year. Do Danes use laser cards for this kind of stuff as well I wonder, or are they just super organised at buying everything in bulk?

I was in Finland recently and noticed a much higher use of laser cards for transactions where we would normally use cash - pubs, newsagents etc

My mother recently was the victim of shoulder surfing and had her laser card stolen and significant amounts spent on it over a weekend, she's gone back to using cash, at least with cash if it's stolen that's it, with a laser or credit card you can have significant multiples stolen.

 

[liaconn]

It would be very hard to keep tabs on your finances if you were using your laser for bits and pieces several times a day. How often have you taken €100 out of the ATM in the morning and at 3pm realised 'Janey, I've only a tenner left. What have I bought?' and started going back over your purchases to account for the €90 you've spent. You wouldn't get that reality check if you were just passing your laser card over the counter ten times a day.

 

[Firefly]

Do you really think that tiger kidnappers do a reasoned 'cost-benefit' type analysis before deciding whether to proceed with their adventures?

I think they would if long sentences were involved. For crime to pay it has to outweigh the probability of getting caught and the fine for getting caught. My point refers to the latter.

 

[Complainer]

For crime to pay it has to outweigh the probability of getting caught and the fine for getting caught.

I think you are overestimating the amount of reasoned thinking that goes into these decisions.

 

[Firefly]

I think you are overestimating the amount of reasoned thinking that goes into these decisions.

On the contrary, we're talking about organised crime here where reasoned thinking and meticilous planning are the norm. If, for example, mandatory life sentences were handed down for these crimes, I think it would make it a lot more difficult for these crime gangs to recuit

 

[pixiebean22]

Have to agree with Firefly, in particular the most recent tiger kidnapping seemed very well organised and the fact that the culprits used a 10 D car (as reported) would suggest that they're not a couple of idiots using an old banger and going in with tights over their heads.

 

[Arabella]

Most places take debit/credit cards these days. So as time goes on ATMs will be surplus to requirements. Who wants to carry a purse of notes/heavy coins about.

 

[Complainer]

Have to agree with Firefly, in particular the most recent tiger kidnapping seemed very well organised and the fact that the culprits used a 10 D car (as reported) would suggest that they're not a couple of idiots using an old banger and going in with tights over their heads.

Have you considered the possibility that they used a stolen car? Does stealing a 10D car show their intelligence?

On the contrary, we're talking about organised crime here where reasoned thinking and meticilous planning are the norm. If, for example, mandatory life sentences were handed down for these crimes, I think it would make it a lot more difficult for these crime gangs to recuit

Have these long sentances worked anywhere else? The last time I dug around on this, the infamous '3 strikes and then life' policy in California has failed miserably to reduce crime levels.

 

[Firefly]

Have these long sentances worked anywhere else?

Good question and tbh I'm not sure of the answer. I think tiger kidnapping is relatively new so not sure on the data available. Also, if we had to look elsewhere for evidence on everything we'd never pioneer anything. We introduced the smoking ban ahead of most of our European neighbours for example.

Why not give it a whirl and see what happens? In my book the worst that can happen is that some scumbag who has psychologically destroyed a family gets put away for an awefully long time.

 

[Marietta]

I would be embarrassed to use my laser card to buy just one sandwich or a bar of chocolate from a supermarket, I mean the time it takes the transaction to be completed sometimes takes ages and then I have to put up with the signs and grunts of those behind me.

The banks put in ATM's to eliminate queues within the bank now they are considering charging another tax so what will happen, people will start going into the banks again to take out their few bob. I think it is a pretty lame idea and as someone else posted above the best option is to impose 20 and 30 years custodial sentences to those bullies who carry out tiger kidnappings and only then will that eliminate the problem. Zero tolerance should mean zero tolerance.

 

[roker]

If they charge for withdrawing money, people will want cash payment so that they do not put money in the bank, the black economy will thrive.

 

[Complainer]

Good question and tbh I'm not sure of the answer. I think tiger kidnapping is relatively new so not sure on the data available. Also, if we had to look elsewhere for evidence on everything we'd never pioneer anything. We introduced the smoking ban ahead of most of our European neighbours for example.

Why not give it a whirl and see what happens? In my book the worst that can happen is that some scumbag who has psychologically destroyed a family gets put away for an awefully long time.

I've had my fill of 'give it a whirl and see what happens' policies. Check out the article by Frank McDonald in the Irish Times about the cost and damage done by McCreevy's 'give it a whirl' decentralisation policy. Personally, I'd prefer to see a well thought out policy based on local and international best practices, rather than just 'give it a whirl'. Your estimation of "the worst that can happen" is short-sighted. The most obvious flaw is that you ignore the extra cost of keeping people in prison for life, and the 'lost opportunity' of this prison place for other purposes.

Let's have some well considered policies. It would make a pleasant change.

If they charge for withdrawing money, people will want cash payment so that they do not put money in the bank, the black economy will thrive.

Very true.

 

[Latrade]

Without being privaledge to the mindset of a criminal, I would hazard a guess that the length of a jail sentence is no part of the decision. The main cost benefit analysis is quick bucks Vs getting caught. Increase the detection (and security of staff): reduce the crime rates. You could have a 100 year mandatory sentence, but if only 1 in 10 (I've no idea, I just made that up) kidnappers are ever caught, it makes no odds.

Some banks still have poor security, especially in smaller branches, some still don't provide adequate training, policies and protection for their keyholders. Instead of addressing that side, it's stick another cost on everyone else. As pointed out, it's not the ATM customers that are using/generating the large volume of cash stored.

I've no problems with eventually moving to "cash free", but it'll take a while to get there. We don't even have something as simple as an Oyster Card system and so public transport still require the cash handling. And you can't penalise people for using cash, when they haven't set up a full system of cash free options first. I like the toll and parking systems electronic systems, I wish there were more like it. Until there is, you can't penalise.

 

[Firefly]

I've had my fill of 'give it a whirl and see what happens' policies. Check out the article by Frank McDonald in the Irish Times about the cost and damage done by McCreevy's 'give it a whirl' decentralisation policy. Personally, I'd prefer to see a well thought out policy based on local and international best practices, rather than just 'give it a whirl'. Your estimation of "the worst that can happen" is short-sighted. The most obvious flaw is that you ignore the extra cost of keeping people in prison for life, and the 'lost opportunity' of this prison place for other purposes.

I knew my "give it a whirl" would invoke a response. Perhaps what we need instead is another expensive, dust-gathering report full of best practices sitting on a shelf somewhere.

I think the extra cost and "'lost opportunity' of this prison place" would be quite low as a result of very harsh sentencing in the first place.

 

[Complainer]

I knew my "give it a whirl" would invoke a response. Perhaps what we need instead is another expensive, dust-gathering report full of best practices sitting on a shelf somewhere.

Just in case of any confusion, that's not what I was recommending either.

I think the extra cost and "'lost opportunity' of this prison place" would be quite low as a result of very harsh sentencing in the first place.

I genuinely don't get what you're saying here.

Some banks still have poor security, especially in smaller branches, some still don't provide adequate training, policies and protection for their keyholders.

Indeed, why aren't the banks using timer-based or remote-control access systems so that the branch staff are just not able to get at large volumes of cash at short notice. This would remove the incentive for this kind of attack completely.

 

[Firefly]

I genuinely don't get what you're saying here.

The point I was making is that IMO very harsh sentencing would act as a deterrent....fewer tiger crimes would be committed, therefore less prison places would be required.

 

[Complainer]

The point I was making is that IMO very harsh sentencing would act as a deterrent....fewer tiger crimes would be committed, therefore less prison places would be required.

Again, you are making assumptions about a logical process being involved in the planning of these crimes. But regardless, tiger crimes make up a small section of the prison population, so even if the detterent worked in this area, there will still be no shortage of candidates waiting for the space being taken up by the tiger guys.

 

[Firefly]

Again, you are making assumptions about a logical process being involved in the planning of these crimes.

Please see my 2nd sentence in post #25. Probabilty of getting caught plus sentencing.

But regardless, tiger crimes make up a small section of the prison population, so even if the detterent worked in this area, there will still be no shortage of candidates waiting for the space being taken up by the tiger guys.

Doesn't this mean that there is no additional cost in putting tiger kidnappers behind bars as these spaces would be used anyway? With a limited number of cells we're down to who should get put away. IMO a tiger kidnapper should be above someone who doesn't pay their ESB bill.