Do you know anything about apprenticeship and the skill olympics? If not do not belittle the role of a craftsperson or the training of such people in this country. Not all skilled training happens within the re-mit of Fas alone. You may need to do a wee bit more research before making such statements as "who made up these things".I am more likely to listen to purple as an employer than results from something like the skills olympics. Seriously who thinks up these things. He is not the first person to raise concerns about FAS and going by the stories last year about FAS courses, he is right to be sceptical.
Do you know anything about apprenticeship and the skill olympics? If not do not belittle the role of a craftsperson or the training of such people in this country. Not all skilled training happens within the re-mit of Fas alone. You may need to do a wee bit more research before making such statements as "who made up these things".
One big problem I see in the IT industry is the drop-out rate among computer science students in college. I have heard averages of 80% drop out rates for 1st year students in computer science. I am not sure why but I think a lot of people sign up for these courses not really understanding whats involved/expected and maybe they also struggle with the maths aspect.
Where did I belittle any skilled tradesperson or craftsman but the point of spending taxpayers money on training is so they can get jobs, not win a medal at some competition. That is how success of training programmes should be judged. Purple as an employer who has experience of employing people said he didn't believe in the FAS training. Maybe as a defender of the system, you should ask him why instead of jumping down his throat.
I work in software development and most of the people I work with hate it.
Very few people will genuinely like it. The rest do it because of the jobs/money, which IMO is wrong.
So there is no easy solution to the "knowledge economy" unless you want a country of people who hate their jobs.
Also, not that many people are capable of being programmers.
I have just learned of a no-go decision by a mobile applications company that was looking to set up in Ireland. At least 40 software jobs were expected. The reason they gave what that we didn't have enough IT resources. Existing IT companies are crying out for good resources (e.g. HP, Avaya). Foreign ICT companies are becoming aware that we have a poor Maths standard and that we are producing low numbers of IT graduates.
So where is the planning/action for this Knowledge Economy? Yesterday all the Education talk among politicians is whether to keep Irish compulsory or not. Its a no-brainer in my mind! People need to wake up to the amount of time and money wasted on Irish. Make computer science compulsory would be more like it. I am sure our kids will thank us for the Irish language when they are forced to emigrate.
You should be careful making slating comments in an area that may have no expertise.
As I'm involved in Apprenticeship training i'm curious to know do you have any expertise in this area because I have and I can vouch for the Trade/Craft training programmes that are run under FAS and Institutes of Technology.
Our Trade/Craft apprentices whose qualifications as you say are not worth the paper that they are written on are an extremely talented group of peolple who luckily have no problems getting work abroad during this economic collapse. This is due to the training programme that enables young skilled craftspersons travel the world and adapt to differing work practices. Our apprenticeship system is recognised as one of the best in the world, just look at the medals achieved in previous skill olympics.
At lot of the problem is brain drain caused by the recession. In better times you could hire people over from the UK, Mainland Europe or Poland etc. as they opened up. Most people see Ireland as in deep deep recession and quite simply won't move here at the moment. The still ridiculous cost of living and house prices/rental costs doesn't exactly help.
Added to that those professionals already in the industry won't move as the see people losing jobs left right and centre so job security becomes number one. Also, the money role for role is the same as it was around 98-99 which is hardly tempting. The recession seems to mean ICT companies expect to get people for about 30% less than 3-4 years ago. Up the money and the market might open up a bit.
Graduates is a problem but it's been a problem since roughly 2002. The problem is now more that there are very few skilled ICT people available to hire because of the 3 reasons above together.
I contract at the moment as wasn't happy with last role and quite simply the contract market is much much more lucrative compared to what I was seeing in the full time market if I was to move.
So in conclusion it's more complex than you say and the money needs to pick up to get people to forgo job security and move.
I served my Apprenticeship through FÁS before they tried to turn it into a academic qualification. I spent my first year between FAS and Bolton Street gaining a basic grounding in the practical and technical skills for my trade before doing my junior trade exams. That meant that when I started with my employer I was less of a cost burden. The same model was used for my senior trade exams; block release and then exams. I found the training I received from FÁS excellent and I found the people who were trained in the same way were very good at their job.
The current training model where employers conduct assessments of trainees is utterly meaningless due to its subjectivity. The quality of the so-called trades people coming out of the new training system is substantially inferior to what we were getting 15-20 years ago. I also find that their computer and CAD skills are not up to scratch. The fact that over the last 10 years we have training so few people in these high demand areas also doesn’t help.
It is my experience that in the engineering trades area Polish and Latvian trades people are technically superior to their Irish counterparts and have a much better work ethic.
BTW, if you think our engineering trades are on par with Holland or Germany then you delusional.
Have you read my posts?What are the high demand areas?
What are the engineering trades?
What do you mean by subjectivity? Do you have expertise in all craft areas?
My comments are specific to the engineering trades sector and with that qualification I stand by them. Being a time served tradesman means nothing to me when I see a CV. What experience a person has and how they get on during their trial period is all that counts.You have previously stated that the Fas qualification is not worth the paper that it is written on. That is a fairly damming statement coming from an employer.
Correct.You're obviouisly not involved in the construction sector!!
So what?Tell that to the thousands of construction apprentices working abroad at the moment. I bet their full craft certificate is worthless there!!
There are plenty of horror stories out there about polish/latvian chancers doing dodgy work.
I found that FAS employees were excellent and had a good understanding of the real-world environment. I can’t say the same for some of the clowns in Bolton Street.I am involved in apprenticeship training and I wasn't cloned from a testube. I know what is happening in the real world. I have the same as craft qualifications as yourself and while the current training programme lends to non existant employer training I can vouch for what I do in the classroom and workshop. Change is needed but do not make sweeping statements when you do not have an insight into the experience/caliber of the trainer/lecturer involved in Fas centre/Institute of Technology.
Have you read my posts?
I have commented on engineering trades rather than construction trades. Specifically Toolmaking.
I am a time served toolmaker and have run my own apprentices through their training while I worked on the shop floor. Therefore I have experience of FAS as an apprentice, a tradesman and an employer. We have had difficulty getting skilled people for the last ten years. Please note that we pay significantly more than the wage levels quoted for a toolmaker on the FAS website.
My comments are specific to the engineering trades sector and with that qualification I stand by them. Being a time served tradesman means nothing to me when I see a CV. What experience a person has and how they get on during their trial period is all that counts.
Correct.
So what?
I found that FAS employees were excellent and had a good understanding of the real-world environment. I can’t say the same for some of the clowns in Bolton Street.
As part of the training that I carried out on apprentices I was required to assess their skill levels in particular areas. This, obviously, was totally subjective (depending on the particular skill set of the tradesperson doing the training and the needs of the employer) and so was meaningless.
It would make my life much easier if FAS was turning out skilled apprentices but that aint the case. That’s why we have had to go abroad to find the people we need. So far that means we’ve taken on people from the UK, Poland, Russia, Latvia, Estonia, India and China. Irish tradespeople don’t have the mindset for 100% quality; a “it’s good enough” attitude prevails. They can’t get their head around the idea that if it’s not 100% right in every respect then it’s wrong.
I said from the start that I was talking about engineering trades. I can also comment on welding, sheet metal fabrication and fitter-turners. The people we get who have served their time as apprentices are years away from being proper tradespeople.As I said previously, you made a sweeping statement about our apprenticeship system and being from one specific craft, toolmaking, you are not in a position to judge the many other crafts.
By the way who are the clowns in Bolton Strret?