So you reckon the sole reason for the strong coorelation between poverty and the factors mentioned is just that these people don't bother getting up off their arses and taking responsibility for their futures?Most of these obstacles IMO can be overcome by taking personal responsibility for your future.
Most of these obstacles IMO can be overcome by taking personal responsibility for your future.
Education - do an evening course, apprentice ship etc
Social Background - plenty people have come from the wrong side of the tracks have done well for themselves.
Ill Health - Reducing consumption of alcohol, giving up cigarettes and not eating prepared / take away meals regularly would significantly add to a household coffers.
Exclusion from the labour market - see education and social background.
So you reckon the sole reason for the strong coorelation between poverty and the factors mentioned is just that these people don't bother getting up off their arses and taking responsibility for their futures?
In order to point to personal resposibility, there has to be an equal system with equal access, then and only then is it a case that people have the same opportunities. That system doesn't exist.
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There isn't the same opportunity/access to the same quality of education for those in a deprived area as there is in a middle class area.
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Health conditions aren't just about smoking, drinking and diet, it's also about some conditions that affect those in deprived areas more because of access to medical attention. TB is a classic example of that. But are you saying there isn't a two tier system? Poor diets and lifestyle aren't the sole preserve of the working class, the difference is, those who can afford it or have health insurance stand a better chance of recovery due to quicker diagnosis and treatement.
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In order to point to personal resposibility, there has to be an equal system with equal access, then and only then is it a case that people have the same opportunities. That system doesn't exist.
While we keep trying to engineer a system that provides equality of outcomes we will never have one that gives equality of access.
The smoked salmon socialists who bleat about “The Poor” can’t get their head around the fact that poor people are not stupid lesser beings that require the help of the enlightened suburbanite pinkos. The pinkos are well meaning in the same way as the members of the various African Support groups around the UK were two hundred years ago when they talked about "the white man’s burden". Poor people are not part of some homogeneous group of halfwits who need to be let through life, they simply need, in so far as is possible, the same chances as everyone else. If they choose not to take them then that’s their own hard luck and they deserve no sympathy.
As an example, not everyone can have access to the best schools because there's only so many "top" schools, but we need to do more about the other schools.
Yes, fair play to Bill. It is great that he has built up his personal empire on the back of Government subsidies (scrappage schemes for the garages, FAS/NDP/EU funding for his Europa academy, artists tax break for his autobiography). Perhaps he should be giving classes to inner-city kids on how to extract money from the public coffers without ever entering a social welfare office?I agree that the system isn't perfect, but look at what Bill Cullen (an extreme example I know) was able to do for himself. I'm just saying, by and large, it's not impossible for poor people to get themselves out of poverty. Life isn't fair, but by putting the head down in a country like this it should be possible to have a decent life
Indeed, smokes and booze do cause many health problems. But there are also many, many health problems NOT related to smokes and booze. It seems just a tad harsh to single out one social group for their health habits, without looking at the overall picture.I never said that and I don't have a silver bullet. What I'm saying is that by taking personal responsibility a lot of "poor" people could better their situation. An easy example. A person smoking 20 fags a day (and I would bet that there are plenty poor people who do so) are spending 3,285 euro (9 euro a pack) a year on cigarettes. It's a personal decision to smoke.
Equally, someone who drinks 5 pints a week in the boozer - again I would guess a lot of (not most) poor people would fall into this category spend 1,170 euro (at 4.50 a pint). It's a personal decision to go to the pub.
I'm not saying for a minute that only poor people smoke and drink - others do too but they can afford it.
Let's not lose track of ourselves. The library is indeed full of free books, but only for 3 weeks at a time (if someone else is waiting for that book). There is free Internet access in many libraries, for an hour a go, and then it is back to the end of the queue.I agree, but the quality in the other schools is good enough to provide a decent education. As mentioned, the libraries are full of free books and internet access. Take the area I work in, IT, for example. Anyone with an interest and application can study from online materials and become (at least partially) certified in a Microsoft field.
I presume whatever subsidies/grants he got are/were available to anyone else? Do you think he'd still be poor if it weren't for the these subsidies because I certainly to not.Yes, fair play to Bill. It is great that he has built up his personal empire on the back of Government subsidies (scrappage schemes for the garages, FAS/NDP/EU funding for his Europa academy, artists tax break for his autobiography). Perhaps he should be giving classes to inner-city kids on how to extract money from the public coffers without ever entering a social welfare office?
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Indeed, smokes and booze do cause many health problems. But there are also many, many health problems NOT related to smokes and booze. It seems just a tad harsh to single out one social group for their health habits, without looking at the overall picture.
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Let's not lose track of ourselves. The library is indeed full of free books, but only for 3 weeks at a time (if someone else is waiting for that book). There is free Internet access in many libraries, for an hour a go, and then it is back to the end of the queue.
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It is indeed possible to get a Microsoft or Cisco qualitification with online study, though the exam fees are fairly punitive.
But it is a lot easier to get the qualification if Daddy pays for your course at the grind college (and of course the obligatory car to commute to/from college too).
But it is a lot easier to get the qualification if Daddy pays for your course at the grind college (and of course the obligatory car to commute to/from college too).
You're joking about the junior support position - right? Maybe that was the case three years ago, but I know of folk with diplomas, or degress or master's degrees who are unable to get the most basic call centre support role in the current environment.I presume whatever subsidies/grants he got are/were available to anyone else? Do you think he'd still be poor if it weren't for the these subsidies because I certainly to not.
As mentioned there are other health issues. Isn't smoking one of the main causes of death in this country though?
I think I would get what I need from a book in 3 weeks if I spent 5 days a week 8 hours a day (ie a real working week) reading it and taking notes. OK there's an hour limit for internet access, but there are plenty internet cafe's around for a small cost ( 1 euro an hour in Cork for example).
The initial ones aren't usually. Someone who IMO has got off their backside and got the first few exams should be able to get a junior support position in a call centre / helpdesk somewhere. From there the money coming in would cover the later exams
Course it's easier, doesn't make it impossible for poor people though.
As an upper middle class public servant living in an exclusive south Dublin leafy suburb will you even pay for one of your children to attend a grind school because their teacher is no good at their job? Or will you let your child suffer because of the shortcomings of their teacher while defending the un-sack-ability of that teacher to your distressed child? I don't know any parent (Father or Mother) who wouldn't help their child through school.It is indeed possible to get a Microsoft or Cisco qualitification with online study, though the exam fees are fairly punitive. But it is a lot easier to get the qualification if Daddy pays for your course at the grind college (and of course the obligatory car to commute to/from college too).
Our current systems often reinforce the disadvantages experienced by many. We are close to the bottom of the OECD table for spending on education, and education is generally seen as the key to personal and economic development.
You're joking about the junior support position - right? Maybe that was the case three years ago, but I know of folk with diplomas, or degress or master's degrees who are unable to get the most basic call centre support role in the current environment.
Yes, you might get be able to get some IT qualifications via the library, but it will be a lot easier if you have a fast PC and fast broadband at home, and you can buy the course books/notes/grinds. It is a lot easier if you have a spare room that you can use for studying, instead of sharing a bedroom with siblings.
The idea of getting on at the bottom rung of the ladder of flawed too. Given the gap between the wages paid at the bottom rung of the ladder and what it takes to survive in Ireland today, you're probably going to need two or three minimum wage jobs just to keep food on the table and a roof over your head. Evening classes aren't really feasible when you spend the evenings working in a bar.
Our current systems often reinforce the disadvantages experienced by many. We are close to the bottom of the OECD table for spending on education, and education is generally seen as the key to personal and economic development.
Yes, fair play to Bill. It is great that he has built up his personal empire on the back of Government subsidies (scrappage schemes for the garages, FAS/NDP/EU funding for his Europa academy, artists tax break for his autobiography). Perhaps he should be giving classes to inner-city kids on how to extract money from the public coffers without ever entering a social welfare office?
This is fiction. The real world does not fit your beautiful theories.
Check out today's Examiner article about the ESRI report, e.g. "their analysis highlights the longer term social processes that underlie poverty risks, such as low educational attainment, social background, ill health and disability, household coposition and exclusion from the labour market". We are a long, long way off an even playing field for all.
Bottom line is that school education in deprived areas does not function well enough. Not only is the early drop out rate higher, but the number of people seeking further 3rd level education is lower. But access to education cannot be blamed, neither affordability.
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