Kevin Myres on working class mindsets.

Most of these obstacles IMO can be overcome by taking personal responsibility for your future.
So you reckon the sole reason for the strong coorelation between poverty and the factors mentioned is just that these people don't bother getting up off their arses and taking responsibility for their futures?
 
Most of these obstacles IMO can be overcome by taking personal responsibility for your future.

Education - do an evening course, apprentice ship etc
Social Background - plenty people have come from the wrong side of the tracks have done well for themselves.
Ill Health - Reducing consumption of alcohol, giving up cigarettes and not eating prepared / take away meals regularly would significantly add to a household coffers.
Exclusion from the labour market - see education and social background.

In order to point to personal resposibility, there has to be an equal system with equal access, then and only then is it a case that people have the same opportunities. That system doesn't exist.

Education, actually there's a huge uptake of evening courses and people do go through that effort. But what evening courses and what ones give them access to jobs. But then that's only a small part of it, education goes back to the beginning, not just later on in life. There isn't the same opportunity/access to the same quality of education for those in a deprived area as there is in a middle class area.

Health conditions aren't just about smoking, drinking and diet, it's also about some conditions that affect those in deprived areas more because of access to medical attention. TB is a classic example of that. But are you saying there isn't a two tier system? Poor diets and lifestyle aren't the sole preserve of the working class, the difference is, those who can afford it or have health insurance stand a better chance of recovery due to quicker diagnosis and treatement.

It's not about everyone starting at the same level, but a society where there aren't barriers as there are now.
 
So you reckon the sole reason for the strong coorelation between poverty and the factors mentioned is just that these people don't bother getting up off their arses and taking responsibility for their futures?

I never said that and I don't have a silver bullet. What I'm saying is that by taking personal responsibility a lot of "poor" people could better their situation. An easy example. A person smoking 20 fags a day (and I would bet that there are plenty poor people who do so) are spending 3,285 euro (9 euro a pack) a year on cigarettes. It's a personal decision to smoke.

Equally, someone who drinks 5 pints a week in the boozer - again I would guess a lot of (not most) poor people would fall into this category spend 1,170 euro (at 4.50 a pint). It's a personal decision to go to the pub.

I'm not saying for a minute that only poor people smoke and drink - others do too but they can afford it.
 
In order to point to personal resposibility, there has to be an equal system with equal access, then and only then is it a case that people have the same opportunities. That system doesn't exist.
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I agree that the system isn't perfect, but look at what Bill Cullen (an extreme example I know) was able to do for himself. I'm just saying, by and large, it's not impossible for poor people to get themselves out of poverty. Life isn't fair, but by putting the head down in a country like this it should be possible to have a decent life

There isn't the same opportunity/access to the same quality of education for those in a deprived area as there is in a middle class area.
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Totally agree, but there is enough access to education to get yourself educated/qualified. The library is free and also has free internet access. If a prisoner (cliche I know) can get a degree in law, it's not unreasonable to ppropose that anyone of average intelligence cannot do something similiar.

Health conditions aren't just about smoking, drinking and diet, it's also about some conditions that affect those in deprived areas more because of access to medical attention. TB is a classic example of that. But are you saying there isn't a two tier system? Poor diets and lifestyle aren't the sole preserve of the working class, the difference is, those who can afford it or have health insurance stand a better chance of recovery due to quicker diagnosis and treatement.
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I totally agree with TB and other issues and i've stated I'm no expert. However, in the areas of smoking, drinking and poor diet every adult in this country has a choice.
 
In order to point to personal resposibility, there has to be an equal system with equal access, then and only then is it a case that people have the same opportunities. That system doesn't exist.

While we keep trying to engineer a system that provides equality of outcomes we will never have one that gives equality of access.
The smoked salmon socialists who bleat about “The Poor” can’t get their head around the fact that poor people are not stupid lesser beings that require the help of the enlightened suburbanite pinkos. The pinkos are well meaning in the same way as the members of the various African Support groups around the UK were two hundred years ago when they talked about "the white man’s burden". Poor people are not part of some homogeneous group of halfwits who need to be let through life, they simply need, in so far as is possible, the same chances as everyone else. If they choose not to take them then that’s their own hard luck and they deserve no sympathy.
 
While we keep trying to engineer a system that provides equality of outcomes we will never have one that gives equality of access.
The smoked salmon socialists who bleat about “The Poor” can’t get their head around the fact that poor people are not stupid lesser beings that require the help of the enlightened suburbanite pinkos. The pinkos are well meaning in the same way as the members of the various African Support groups around the UK were two hundred years ago when they talked about "the white man’s burden". Poor people are not part of some homogeneous group of halfwits who need to be let through life, they simply need, in so far as is possible, the same chances as everyone else. If they choose not to take them then that’s their own hard luck and they deserve no sympathy.

That's a bit of a mashup of concepts. The last bit is the important bit, which is what I would argue for that they get the same chance as everyone else. They don't and not just in social provisions and policy but also culturally (which is harder to change).

As an example, not everyone can have access to the best schools because there's only so many "top" schools, but we need to do more about the other schools.

The smoked samon socialists can be as hypocritical, well meaning and wrong as they want, however their existience and basic fallacies doesn't mean the divide and lack of opportunity doesn't exist.

When those opportunities exist for the majority in deprived areas, then I will stand up and say that it's all only about personal responsibility.
 
As an example, not everyone can have access to the best schools because there's only so many "top" schools, but we need to do more about the other schools.

I agree, but the quality in the other schools is good enough to provide a decent education. As mentioned, the libraries are full of free books and internet access. Take the area I work in, IT, for example. Anyone with an interest and application can study from online materials and become (at least partially) certified in a Microsoft field.
 
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Schools and colleges are shut over the summer - why they are not utilised beggers belief.

FAS needs to be revamped.

The Institutes of Technology do great work.

When you do courses - you have choice.
 
I agree that the system isn't perfect, but look at what Bill Cullen (an extreme example I know) was able to do for himself. I'm just saying, by and large, it's not impossible for poor people to get themselves out of poverty. Life isn't fair, but by putting the head down in a country like this it should be possible to have a decent life
Yes, fair play to Bill. It is great that he has built up his personal empire on the back of Government subsidies (scrappage schemes for the garages, FAS/NDP/EU funding for his Europa academy, artists tax break for his autobiography). Perhaps he should be giving classes to inner-city kids on how to extract money from the public coffers without ever entering a social welfare office?

I never said that and I don't have a silver bullet. What I'm saying is that by taking personal responsibility a lot of "poor" people could better their situation. An easy example. A person smoking 20 fags a day (and I would bet that there are plenty poor people who do so) are spending 3,285 euro (9 euro a pack) a year on cigarettes. It's a personal decision to smoke.

Equally, someone who drinks 5 pints a week in the boozer - again I would guess a lot of (not most) poor people would fall into this category spend 1,170 euro (at 4.50 a pint). It's a personal decision to go to the pub.

I'm not saying for a minute that only poor people smoke and drink - others do too but they can afford it.
Indeed, smokes and booze do cause many health problems. But there are also many, many health problems NOT related to smokes and booze. It seems just a tad harsh to single out one social group for their health habits, without looking at the overall picture.

I agree, but the quality in the other schools is good enough to provide a decent education. As mentioned, the libraries are full of free books and internet access. Take the area I work in, IT, for example. Anyone with an interest and application can study from online materials and become (at least partially) certified in a Microsoft field.
Let's not lose track of ourselves. The library is indeed full of free books, but only for 3 weeks at a time (if someone else is waiting for that book). There is free Internet access in many libraries, for an hour a go, and then it is back to the end of the queue.

It is indeed possible to get a Microsoft or Cisco qualitification with online study, though the exam fees are fairly punitive. But it is a lot easier to get the qualification if Daddy pays for your course at the grind college (and of course the obligatory car to commute to/from college too).
 
Yes, fair play to Bill. It is great that he has built up his personal empire on the back of Government subsidies (scrappage schemes for the garages, FAS/NDP/EU funding for his Europa academy, artists tax break for his autobiography). Perhaps he should be giving classes to inner-city kids on how to extract money from the public coffers without ever entering a social welfare office?
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I presume whatever subsidies/grants he got are/were available to anyone else? Do you think he'd still be poor if it weren't for the these subsidies because I certainly to not.

Indeed, smokes and booze do cause many health problems. But there are also many, many health problems NOT related to smokes and booze. It seems just a tad harsh to single out one social group for their health habits, without looking at the overall picture.
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As mentioned there are other health issues. Isn't smoking one of the main causes of death in this country though?

Let's not lose track of ourselves. The library is indeed full of free books, but only for 3 weeks at a time (if someone else is waiting for that book). There is free Internet access in many libraries, for an hour a go, and then it is back to the end of the queue.
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I think I would get what I need from a book in 3 weeks if I spent 5 days a week 8 hours a day (ie a real working week) reading it and taking notes. OK there's an hour limit for internet access, but there are plenty internet cafe's around for a small cost ( 1 euro an hour in Cork for example).


It is indeed possible to get a Microsoft or Cisco qualitification with online study, though the exam fees are fairly punitive.

The initial ones aren't usually. Someone who IMO has got off their backside and got the first few exams should be able to get a junior support position in a call centre / helpdesk somewhere. From there the money coming in would cover the later exams

But it is a lot easier to get the qualification if Daddy pays for your course at the grind college (and of course the obligatory car to commute to/from college too).

Course it's easier, doesn't make it impossible for poor people though.
 
But it is a lot easier to get the qualification if Daddy pays for your course at the grind college (and of course the obligatory car to commute to/from college too).

Thats a different extreme. The 'working class' may not have Daddy paying for grind college and the obligatory car commute - but neither do most other people, sure, some rich kids might get treated that way but the vast majority just get on with things walking to and from school and not doing grinds.
 
I presume whatever subsidies/grants he got are/were available to anyone else? Do you think he'd still be poor if it weren't for the these subsidies because I certainly to not.

As mentioned there are other health issues. Isn't smoking one of the main causes of death in this country though?

I think I would get what I need from a book in 3 weeks if I spent 5 days a week 8 hours a day (ie a real working week) reading it and taking notes. OK there's an hour limit for internet access, but there are plenty internet cafe's around for a small cost ( 1 euro an hour in Cork for example).

The initial ones aren't usually. Someone who IMO has got off their backside and got the first few exams should be able to get a junior support position in a call centre / helpdesk somewhere. From there the money coming in would cover the later exams

Course it's easier, doesn't make it impossible for poor people though.
You're joking about the junior support position - right? Maybe that was the case three years ago, but I know of folk with diplomas, or degress or master's degrees who are unable to get the most basic call centre support role in the current environment.

But regardless, you are missing the point (possibly deliberately so). No-one is suggesting that it is absolutely impossible for some focused, dedicated people from working class backgrounds to work their asses off and develop a good career. I'm not too far off that background myself, and I know some others that fit the description.

The real issue here is the fundamental unfairness that is built into our system at the moment. Yes, you might get be able to get some IT qualifications via the library, but it will be a lot easier if you have a fast PC and fast broadband at home, and you can buy the course books/notes/grinds. It is a lot easier if you have a spare room that you can use for studying, instead of sharing a bedroom with siblings.

The idea of getting on at the bottom rung of the ladder of flawed too. Given the gap between the wages paid at the bottom rung of the ladder and what it takes to survive in Ireland today, you're probably going to need two or three minimum wage jobs just to keep food on the table and a roof over your head. Evening classes aren't really feasible when you spend the evenings working in a bar.

Our current systems often reinforce the disadvantages experienced by many. We are close to the bottom of the OECD table for spending on education, and education is generally seen as the key to personal and economic development.
 
It is indeed possible to get a Microsoft or Cisco qualitification with online study, though the exam fees are fairly punitive. But it is a lot easier to get the qualification if Daddy pays for your course at the grind college (and of course the obligatory car to commute to/from college too).
As an upper middle class public servant living in an exclusive south Dublin leafy suburb will you even pay for one of your children to attend a grind school because their teacher is no good at their job? Or will you let your child suffer because of the shortcomings of their teacher while defending the un-sack-ability of that teacher to your distressed child? I don't know any parent (Father or Mother) who wouldn't help their child through school.

By the way, your constant reference to "Daddy" paying for things for their children is very sexist. I know plenty of women who earn more than their husband (including mine).
 
Our current systems often reinforce the disadvantages experienced by many. We are close to the bottom of the OECD table for spending on education, and education is generally seen as the key to personal and economic development.

Given the collapse in our GDP and GNP those fugures will look great next year (lies, damned lies and statistics).
 
You're joking about the junior support position - right? Maybe that was the case three years ago, but I know of folk with diplomas, or degress or master's degrees who are unable to get the most basic call centre support role in the current environment.

Granted it's difficult at the moment. What about the past 10 years though? What about when things pick up again - only last week I heard that the number of IT vacancies were on the up. What about other industries?

Yes, you might get be able to get some IT qualifications via the library, but it will be a lot easier if you have a fast PC and fast broadband at home, and you can buy the course books/notes/grinds. It is a lot easier if you have a spare room that you can use for studying, instead of sharing a bedroom with siblings.

Course it's easier if you have your own room with a fast PC and broadband..easier still if you shell out 3k for a Microsoft course. Doesn't make it even close to impossible if you don't though. I know plenty people who shared bedrooms with siblings who got to university though hard work.

The idea of getting on at the bottom rung of the ladder of flawed too. Given the gap between the wages paid at the bottom rung of the ladder and what it takes to survive in Ireland today, you're probably going to need two or three minimum wage jobs just to keep food on the table and a roof over your head. Evening classes aren't really feasible when you spend the evenings working in a bar.

The commitment to getting (even partially) qualified in many areas is less than 1 or 2 years...Hardly the end of the world.

Our current systems often reinforce the disadvantages experienced by many. We are close to the bottom of the OECD table for spending on education, and education is generally seen as the key to personal and economic development.

That may be true, but for someone who applies themselves, the education on offer is good enough IMO to give them a good enough start. Nothing stopping someone from reading extra material themselves.
 
There is hardly any support in this country for part time study.

This is a disgrace.

Incentives for cars, property & horses is ok but part time study - there is nothing.

The internet could be used to facilitate courses.
 
Yes, fair play to Bill. It is great that he has built up his personal empire on the back of Government subsidies (scrappage schemes for the garages, FAS/NDP/EU funding for his Europa academy, artists tax break for his autobiography). Perhaps he should be giving classes to inner-city kids on how to extract money from the public coffers without ever entering a social welfare office?

Do you have any actual proof that Bill Cullen built up his empire this way and not from his own industrious efforts in selling cars?
 
What I find annoying is the government talking about the smart enonomy and the cutting back training courses.

ESF grant funding unclaimed and 430,000+ people out of work.
 
This is fiction. The real world does not fit your beautiful theories.

Check out today's Examiner article about the ESRI report, e.g. "their analysis highlights the longer term social processes that underlie poverty risks, such as low educational attainment, social background, ill health and disability, household coposition and exclusion from the labour market". We are a long, long way off an even playing field for all.

Any perception of an uneven playing field is not due to capitalism, and certainly not free market capitalism. Let me reiterate, we do not have free market capitalism; we have a corrupted version more aptly called crony capitalism and interventionism.
The reason the playing field is perceived as not level, is because those things that government, and not capitalism, is responsible for, are so totally inadequate, with education being the biggest problem.
There are many theories why people from less well off areas achieve less from an educational point of view than people from well off areas. Bottom line is that school education in deprived areas does not function well enough. Not only is the early drop out rate higher, but the number of people seeking further 3rd level education is lower. But access to education cannot be blamed, neither affordability.
All the items you quote above can be solved through education. But for this to happen politicians would have to admit that their system has failed for all these years, and does not give them reason to introduce yet another agency or committee to deal with the problem. Social problems are a direct result of bad and big government, and giving government ever increasing powers to expand their meddling in the economy and lives of citizens is only going to make things worse.
 
Bottom line is that school education in deprived areas does not function well enough. Not only is the early drop out rate higher, but the number of people seeking further 3rd level education is lower. But access to education cannot be blamed, neither affordability.

For me the issue is with parenting (or lack of) and peer pressure. The schools are there & the teachers are qualified. Perhaps the "rich" schools have better teachers, but surely the teachers in poorer schools are good enough to at least get their pupils through the Leaving Cert if all of the pupils were willing?

Regarding parenting : how parents try to raise their children is a personal choice.
Regarding peer pressure : this is more difficult to overcome, but with good parenting from the outset most children will see that the eejits and bullies in the yard are just eejits and bullies. Again, a personal choice.
 
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