KBC KBC basing cohorts on Application date rather than Draw-down dates

[gnf_ireland]

Because I was fixed for 2 years and to rollover to a "tracker" like the flyer stated.

The flyer was withdrawn on the date the broker met the underwriter (14th February) and the date of the application - according to KBC

On 14th February, the default rollover was no longer a tracker as the flyer is out of the equation.

If KBC & CB hold to the dates, then this argument will not work. If they show a level of flex, you might be successful.

 

[gnf_ireland]

you must work for KBC... or have way to much time on your hands

nah, nothing like that
I have injured/broke my foot so working from home way more than usual and get distracted at times by discussions like these. But yes, I should go back to doing some work !

BTW you will see on other posts I made, in particular about new v existing customer rates I am exceptionally critical of KBC practices.0


If everyone thinks I have lost my marbles here and am taking a completely unrealistic view, I am happy to step away from the discussion. I feel I am being neutral and putting up a counter argument to "its all the banks fault" here. I am not pro bank in any way for the record.

 

[Jazzer1]

My argument gnf is that you don't need everything on paper due to the fact 650 people hadn't written confirmation of a tracker, they also UNDERSTOOD they were going onto a tracker like myself. I filled out the exact application form the same as those 650 with the same term and conditions.your point is you have to have it on paper to have a case which in this case I don't agree gnf.

 

[Jazzer1]

If everyone thinks I have lost my marbles here and am taking a completely unrealistic view, I am happy to step away from the discussion. I feel I am being neutral and putting up a counter argument to "its all the banks fault" here. I am not pro bank in any way for the record.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely not gnf. I am delighted you are trying to blow holes in my argument. Isn't that what kbc will try and do.

 

[gnf_ireland]

My argument gnf is that you don't need everything on paper due to the fact 650 people hadn't written confirmation of a tracker, they also UNDERSTOOD they were going onto a tracker like myself. I filled out the exact application form the same as those 650 with the same term and conditions.your point is you have to have it on paper to have a case which in this case I don't agree gnf.

The 650 customers are different. These fall within specific dates conceded to by KBC even though the burden of evidence was probably against them. Rightly or wrongly, KBC seem to have unilaterally given this 650 a by and allowed them onto a tracker retrospectively whether they discussed this with their broker or not. My guess here is the infamous flyer would have made life difficult for KBC, so to appease the Central Bank the concession was made.
At the Oireacthas committee, KBC were very bullish on this. They provided clear dates to the members and said they discussed it with the Central Bank as well. Yes, they said they would look at customers on the fringes, but I would not expect the same unilateral by to all of these. Some will be successful, some will not be.

The difference here is for the 650 KBC have taken the explicit decision NOT to require the documented evidence based on the existence of the flyer. Those outside these dates are different, and I believe you will require documentation of some sort to prove your case, or else you are relying on a circumstantial story and support from your broker would probably assist here if they are willing to do it.

Yes you are on the same contract as those 650 customer - but the flyer does not come into the discussion according to KBC, as it had been withdrawn. This is the fundamental difference !

If I am being cynical, I would say that KBC offered the 650 the trackers back as a goodwill gesture to appease the Central Bank's process and get them off their back. I think any customer would have legitimately struggled to prove they were influenced by the flyer, but the existence of the flyer was enough to make life difficult for KBC. They have been very specific on the 11th February date, so am guessing they will hold a firm line on it.

This is just my personal view...

 

[Jazzer1]

The argument with the pulling of the flyer on the 11th of Feb isn't clear cut either. KBC Will have to show evidence of the correspondence firstly then when did they send to the brokers and also when brokers received it. If they can't show that then their argument is dead in the water.

 

[gnf_ireland]

The argument with the pulling of the flyer on the 11th of Feb isn't clear cut either. KBC Will have to show evidence of the correspondence firstly then when did they send to the brokers and also when brokers received it. If they can't show that then their argument is dead in the water.

Or visa versa - others will have to show they did not do it
They were specific on the dates - I assume they have evidence to support this. If they don't they will come across very badly in the discussions, and likely to be on the back foot on any future probes in the area.

I have asked a number of times on this thread if anyone has seen this communication etc. So yes I do agree that the communication around the removal of the 'flyer' details should be made public by someone !

 

[mccoypat94]

nah, nothing like that
I have injured/broke my foot so working from home way more than usual and get distracted at times by discussions like these. But yes, I should go back to doing some work !

BTW you will see on other posts I made, in particular about new v existing customer rates I am exceptionally critical of KBC practices.0


If everyone thinks I have lost my marbles here and am taking a completely unrealistic view, I am happy to step away from the discussion. I feel I am being neutral and putting up a counter argument to "its all the banks fault" here. I am not pro bank in any way for the record.

Whats your view on my case, drew down in January 07, fixed having being told that I would have the option of rolling to tracker. I was hopeful i was in the 650 cohort but told no by KBC because I began the application before the flyer appeared. They are telling me they believe the flyer had no baring on my decision to fix and that I could have taken a tracker as it was offered. I am arguing that the broker told me that I would roll off to tracker before I finalized on the basis of that flyer in jan 2007. They are telling me tough luck in banking jargon.

 

[gnf_ireland]

Whats your view on my case, drew down in January 07, fixed having being told that I would have the option of rolling to tracker.

I am arguing that the broker told me that I would roll off to tracker before I finalized on the basis of that flyer in jan 2007.

I believe drawing down date is irrelevant in this discussion if I am being honest (personal opinion obviously). Its more important when the Letter of Offer was issued and more importantly signed. If the Letter of Offer was issued after xx November 2006, I think its reasonable to expect that you would be in discussion with the broker and the flyer has a reasonable chance of being mentioned as it was just issued to the broker - therefore influence the discussion. If the Letter of Offer was signed before the xx November 2006, no case at all in my opinion. If it was signed a few days afterwards - difficult to justify. If it was over a week plus afterwards, then stronger case.
Better again if you had two or more mortgage applications running in parallel, so you eventually selected KBC based on the flyer !
*cannot remember the exact date in November as dates spinning around my head from this discussion and two others I am partaking in*

Back in post 61 I stated the following:

Personally, I would say someone who met a broker in September 2006, applied in October 2006 and got their Letter of Offer in November 2006 (after the flyer was issued) would be in a stronger position to 'prove' they were influenced by the flyer, as they would have been in regular contact with the broker during the time the flyer was issued and would be naive of KBC to assume the broker would not have highlighted this to them when it came in the door to re-enforce their message

This position has not changed, but whether KBC agree with me or not is a different story.
This is probably further confused in scenarios where approval appears to be given by a KBC underwriter before the application was officially submitted like @Jazzer1 scenario

Whats your view on my case

And just to clarify, I am not a banking professional whatsoever, so if you want a proper opinion someone like Padraig Kissane is a much better bet
I just take the interest in the KBC discussions (more than most) as I have my mortgage with them and want to see how they are to deal with when things go bad. I am just very logical in my viewpoint at times !

 

[Jazzer1]

If I am being cynical, I would say that KBC offered the 650 the trackers back as a goodwill gesture to appease the Central Bank's process and get them off their back

Looking back when kbc were in front of the oireachtas and Michael Mcgrath asked about the 650 private dwellings cohort "would the mortgage documentation of the customer, as in the mortgage contract,not have made ref to any entitlement to be put on a tracker"
Dara Deering " It never referred to a tracker exactly".
Then what did it refer to?

 

[gnf_ireland]

Then what did it refer to?

I think the term in all the mortgage documentation is "prevailing variable rate" but you would know better than I would as its on your mortgage contract.

It is the existence of the flyer that is giving these customers back their trackers, not what is written into the contracts

 

[Jazzer1]

I think the term in all the mortgage documentation is "prevailing variable rate" but you would know better than I would as its on your mortgage contract.

It is the existence of the flyer that is giving these customers back their trackers, not what is written into the contracts

But the flyer did say revert to a tracker after a fixed period....so why then was it not in the contracts?. When I was sold it I was told the same "I would go to a tracker after my fixed period expired but the term "tracker" was not used and the majority of the 650 private dwellings cohort were the same, so without any doubt the prevailing variable rate was a "Tracker Rate". Some how they convinced the c.b it wasn't.

 

[Sanparom]

I think the term in all the mortgage documentation is "prevailing variable rate" but you would know better than I would as its on your mortgage contract.

It is the existence of the flyer that is giving these customers back their trackers, not what is written into the contracts

I am just so fed up of the flyer argument. KBC seem to be using it as an easy way out of compensating others who had it written into their contract that they would roll to another rate (ie tracker!). The focus on the flyer is extremely frustrating.

As an aside, if your application form had the options of fixed and tracker, but you went for fixed, should you have been still offered tracker at a later date? Sorry, I know this has been dealt with elsewhere, but I've searched the forum and can't find an answer anywhere.

 

[Jazzer1]

aside, if your application form had the options of fixed and tracker, but you went for fixed, should you have been still offered tracker at a later date

The terms of the flyer was that you went from a fixed rate to a tracker rate. I heard Dara Deering using the term standard rate for the prevailing rate but the words standard variable rate is no where to be seen on my contract.

 

[gnf_ireland]

I am just so fed up of the flyer argument. KBC seem to be using it as an easy way out of compensating others who had it written into their contract that they would roll to another rate (ie tracker!). The focus on the flyer is extremely frustrating.

I don't really want to get into all of this again, as I do think I have covered my position on this one to death already and I am sure everyone is fed up listening to me repeat myself over and over again...

Being honest, with the flyer being issued, it is highly unlikely KBC would have given any of that 650 back their trackers without a major court case. There was nothing on their mortgage documentation which said they were entitled to revert to a tracker. They would have held their position and let the courts decide what "prevailing variable rate" was. Given there is no mention of tracker, no mention of what is being tracked and no mention of offset, its a very hard (although not impossible sell). I have suggested above that you would need to find out what someone who fixed for 2 years in 2005 would have defaulted onto in 2007 as proof either way.

The existence of the flyer where it said that people who fixed would revert onto a tracker on expiry of the fixed rate was issued to brokers between November 2006 and withdrawn (according to KBC) on 11th February 2008. This put the cat among the pigeons and it was going to make this a very difficult discussion for KBC. Marketing material contradicting their mortgage contracts - who would win? What would the man on the street best understand. Would they be found guilty of misleading customers?
This is why the flyer and the dates are so important to KBC. It should also be noted that this only applies to customers who applied via a broker !!!

So the simple position is for the 650 within the dates they have agreed, they are ignoring what is written in the mortgage contracts and conceding on the tracker

I understand the frustration on the flyer, but in my view, KBC would not have conceded on any group without the existence of the flyer

As an aside, if your application form had the options of fixed and tracker, but you went for fixed, should you have been still offered tracker at a later date?

No, an application form is for a point in time. Products change, rates change etc. You applied for a fixed rate and at the end of the fixed rate you defaulted to what the rollover rate was at the time. You can apply for another product at this stage which you are eligible for.
Its likely if you applied for a fixed rate, the underwriting process was different to a tracker or variable rate as someone mentioned previously on this thread



And on that note I think I should bow out of the discussion, as we are going around and around in circles. Best to luck to one and all with their complaints with KBC and I will keep a keen eye on the outcomes. I genuinely wish you all all the best with them, and more importantly you get closure in a reasonable timeframe ! good luck !

 

[Jazzer1]

Just wondering could anyone give me some advice please.I lodged a complaint with kbc on the 1st of Feb over the reason why I was deemed not impacted. I asked for them to formally tell me that I'm not impacted and the reason why. My case is on the fringe date of the flyer being pulled. On the 3rd of Feb they replied to me saying they would have an update on my complaint no later than Feb 26.
So this morning I received an encrypted email saying "we are writing further to our acknowledgement of your complaint to confirm that review of this matter is ongoing and we will be in contact further with you as soon possible but in any event or before 20th march 2018".
The advice I'm looking for is, should I lodge a complaint with the Ombudsman? or do I have a case?.
Why have they not formally told in writing the reasons for my account being not impacted?.

 

[peemac]

Just wondering could anyone give me some advice please.I lodged a complaint with kbc on the 1st of Feb over the reason why I was deemed not impacted. I asked for them to formally tell me that I'm not impacted and the reason why. My case is on the fringe date of the flyer being pulled. On the 3rd of Feb they replied to me saying they would have an update on my complaint no later than Feb 26.
So this morning I received an encrypted email saying "we are writing further to our acknowledgement of your complaint to confirm that review of this matter is ongoing and we will be in contact further with you as soon possible but in any event or before 20th march 2018".
The advice I'm looking for is, should I lodge a complaint with the Ombudsman? or do I have a case?.
Why have they not formally told in writing the reasons for my account being not impacted?.

I reckon they are reviewing your case on an individual basis.

I'd see that as positive especially as there's only 3 weeks befroe they respond directly.

Better than a standard pre-worded response and suggests that someone actually looked at your account rather than auto replied.

 

[Jazzer1]

I reckon they are reviewing your case on an individual basis.

I'd see that as positive especially as there's only 3 weeks befroe they respond directly.

Thanks peemac for the response, You don't think they're just fobbin me off for another while?.

 

[peemac]

Thanks peemac for the response, You don't think they're just fobbin me off for another while?.

No, kbc are as extremely careful in their communication. The easy option would have been a standard letter with their standard line that you were not in the timeframe.

3 weeks is not a long time to wait. If they said end of June, I'd think differently.

 

[mccoypat94]

I received a letter on the 12th February outlining why kbc deem me not impacted.
I am hopeful that the ombudsman would overturn this decision as I drew down after the flyer but applied before.
However I have emailed kbc twice in the past month for confirmation that their position is final, they have failed to respond , should I put my complaint into the ombudsman?im tired of waiting and want to put this to bed on way or another