Junior /Leaving Cert Marking - 10% extra throught the medium of Irish

[casiopea]

I find all the posts about how difficult it is to do the exams as gaeilge fascinating! So you spend 5 years learning all sorts of scientific terms etc in irish......what happens when you get your Applied Physics place in third level? Won't you then have to relearn all the terms in english? Or at least mentally translate stuff into irish?

It really depended on the person and on your abilities, if you thought in irish you may have translated in english and vice versa. I know for example, I learnt all scientific terms in irish and english. Not all exam papers and books were in irish so it was necessary to have an understanding/recognition in both languages, so when I went to university I wasnt really searching for english words. Its definitely true that some people in gaelscoileanna struggled but I think some people in english schools struggled too and you always had the option to do what I did - which was to actually sit the exam in english.

Not only that, but Irish is a dead language. I never heard any conversations in it since I left school many years ago, and I have visited all 32 counties. I must have visited hundreds if not thousands of newsagents over the years in different towns, airports, petrol stations etc, and never saw anyone buying Irish language newspapers or magazines. Its unfair that so many billions of our money - taxpayers money - is pumped in to ramming Irish down kids throats in schools, and spent of printing govt. things in Irish etc No wonder we as a country are so bad at continental languages. For example, ask any bewildered German or French elderly tourist in Ireland has any Irish person ever communicated /spoken to them. Never mind listening to the average Irish person when in France or Germany.

Irish-is-a-dead-language is a whole other debate (and has been debated here many times). I am not too sure what you mean though by your last 2 statements, are you saying that Irish people dont talk to the French and Germans at all when they are Ireland? Or we just dont speak to them in Irish? In fairness the former is rubbish and I wouldnt do the latter as they dont understand Irish? Im not really too sure what your point is? Last week a swiss-german man asked me to speak to him in Irish and I did, but I would only do so if I asked to. My husband, who is swiss, often points out irish words on signs, menus, doors, tv asking me what they mean when he is in Dublin.

I also dont understand: "Never mind listening to the average Irish person when in France or Germany." What is your point here? We should speak irish to the french and germans when in their country? Surely we should speak their language or at the very least english which they might understand? Are you saying that we should learn more foreign languages and therefore in France and Germany speak French and German respectively? It is ironically the irish that was "rammed down your throat" that would help you there.

Since leaving school I have learnt Italian and German to reasonably fluent levels. I was also taught French in school. Eventhough I now speak 5 languages, I dont consider myself a natural linguist but I do think that having learnt Irish and English means that I have a very clear understanding of the structure of languages and can learn some constructs very quickly. There are many aspects of the German language for example that are easier to learn for an Irish speaker than an English speaker (common grammar that simply doesn't exist English).

I really feel a good understanding of either Latin or Irish (both perceived "dead languages") is not only beneficial from a historical perspective but also beneficial from a learning (a foreign language) perspective.

 

[dtlyn]

Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking

I think the rule that applies is that you get 10% of the marks that you didn't achieve.

e.g. if you got 80% you missed out on 20% so you get 10% of this which would bring your score up to 82%.

I think it's very fair and a good way to encourage the growth of the language.

The difference between an A2 and A1 is 10 points. If you conduct your exams through irish and get say 89% you'll get an extra 1% through Irish.

If Sean Gaeolscoil gets 89% is Biology, Chemistry, Geography ( can you do Irish- maths? ) he gets 3 A1s

If Johnny CBS Cabra gets 89% in the same three subjects he gets A2s

So he gets 30 points less.

Johnny CBS Cabra, spent his time exchanges learning German, had no facility to speak Irish on a regular basis in his school, lives in a North Dublin former-council area with no option but the local CBS, wasn't encouraged to, or even aware of the facility to do certain subjects through Irish.

Now throw Johnny Polish and Johnny Indian into the equation and you'll see what an actual, unfair joke this is.

This isn't encouraging growth of the Irish language. Forcing it down peoples throats through Peig Seyers and mark incentives does more to damage the language than promote it amongst young people. TG4's weather girls encourage growth of the Irish Language. Radio na Gaeltachta playing deep house music on a tuesday night with a DJ speaking Irish does the same.

This extra marking is a blatant leg up from the GAA clan who run the education system to their own.

 

[casiopea]

Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking

The difference between an A2 and A1 is 10 points. If you conduct your exams through irish and get say 89% you'll get an extra 1% through Irish.

If Sean Gaeolscoil gets 89% is Biology, Chemistry, Geography ( can you do Irish- maths? ) he gets 3 A1s

If Johnny CBS Cabra gets 89% in the same three subjects he gets A2s

So he gets 30 points less.

Johnny CBS Cabra, spent his time exchanges learning German, had no facility to speak Irish on a regular basis in his school, lives in a North Dublin former-council area with no option but the local CBS, wasn't encouraged to, or even aware of the facility to do certain subjects through Irish.

Now throw Johnny Polish and Johnny Indian into the equation and you'll see what an actual, unfair joke this is.

This isn't encouraging growth of the Irish language. Forcing it down peoples throats through Peig Seyers and mark incentives does more to damage the language than promote it amongst young people. TG4's weather girls encourage growth of the Irish Language. Radio na Gaeltachta playing deep house music on a tuesday night with a DJ speaking Irish does the same.

I definitely agree with your analogy regarding John Cabra and Sean Gaelscoil. The choice is actually for John's parents and Sean's parents not John and Sean themselves. By the time John gets to 14 and decides he might like to do his exams through irish the switch may be too daunting. My parents, not me I was 4, chose a gaelscoil (we have no affailation with GAA clan or society).

Throwing Johnny Indian and Johnny Polish into the equation doesnt apply. They dont have to sit Irish at all - yes they dont get this 1% but if their future generations remain in Ireland they will. There are many things I cant avail of here in Switzerland as an immigrant but my children would if they grow up here.

The solution to the above problem described by yourself is to make irish schools and facilities more available to the likes of Johnny Cabra.

That costs money. Then you'll have the irish-is-dead-you-shouldnt-be-throwing-money-at-this brigade up in a storm.

Irish is no more "rammed down your throat" than German was down Johnny Cabra's throat. Also "dead languages" are taught in many many countries, from welsh, to latin, to Romansch.

 

[HighFlier]

Dead languages may well be taught in other countries but I dont think that grades are falsified there because of proficency in these languages.

BTW I did Latin for five years in school and have found it immensely useful in many ways from spelling, to understanding unusual English words to even gardening names of plants and medical terms.

I also studied Irish for the same period and have never, ever come across a situation in which it has been of the slightest help to me.

I agree also with a previous poster that one of the reasons the Irish are so bad at speaking European languages is the language "overload" that ensues by devoting so much time to having Irish rammed down their throats.

 

[casiopea]

Dead languages may well be taught in other countries but I dont think that grades are falsified there because of proficency in these languages.

Neither is Irish in a english speaking school. Dead languages are taught in same manner in other countries as Irish is taught here. The other scenario of the compensation for sitting exams in irish has been thoroughly discussed here, I am happy to agree to disagree if you feel its a falsified grade.

BTW I did Latin for five years in school and have found it immensely useful in many ways from spelling, to understanding unusual English words to even gardening names of plants and medical terms.

I also studied Irish for the same period and have never, ever come across a situation in which it has been of the slightest help to me.

There are many many overlaps between Irish and German grammar. When learning german I often refer to Irish for understanding and not english (where there is zero similiarity) and bizarrely there are many references in italian which are the same in irish (mainly due to the fact that both Latin and Irish were very heavily influenced by the church).

While I am happy to agree that peig sawyers is a difficult piece of text which in (english) schools can be taught badly, Irish is not rammed down peoples throat. Its simply another subject on the syllabus that at 18 you can you chose to simply never speak or use again. Just like German, French, Physics, History or whatever subject got your goat. I really feel irish people should get over it - no offence intended to anyone on the forum.

 

[gianni]

Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking

Forcing it down peoples throats through Peig Seyers and mark incentives does more to damage the language than promote it amongst young people...

Peig has been off the compulsory syllabus for almost 15 years... let it go!!

 

[dtlyn]

Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking

Peig has been off the compulsory syllabus for almost 15 years... let it go!!

Don't be pedantic, you know what I'm talking about.

My parents, not me I was 4, chose a gaelscoil (we have no affailation with GAA clan or society).

The education system that awards an extra x% for doing Chemistry in Irish ( required by all the Americal Multinational Pharama companies? ) does.

Throwing Johnny Indian and Johnny Polish into the equation doesnt apply.

Yes it does, of course! They don't have to sit Irish at all but they are put into a system whereby they are immediately disadvantaged in relation to gaeolscoil sitters, by this extra marks awared for sitting in an exam in a language that they've less chance than Johnny Cabra of studied to any considerable extent.

yes they dont get this 1%
but if their future generations remain in Ireland they will.

Thats rubbish. If a Polish family have to resort to sending their 4 year old to a Gaelscoil to compete on a level plane on the CEO there's something wrong. Either way, what are the chances of this happening? Are there Gaeilscoils in Ongar or Lexlip? Or evens schools there with sufficent capacity to get the basics right?

The solution to the above problem described by yourself is to make irish schools and facilities more available to the likes of Johnny Cabra.
That costs money. Then you'll have the irish-is-dead-you-shouldnt-be-throwing-money-at-this brigade up in a storm.

That is absolutely not the solution. In a country with the least Education Monetary Investment in europe and a global economy with demand for high class graduates with global skillsets, the money is better spent on schools for Ongar, increased capacity for the likes of Mochtas in Carpenterstown and getting taught the basics correctly ( Maths?)

Irish is no more "rammed down your throat" than German was down Johnny Cabra's throat.

Yes it was, it was horrible. German was taught in a much more interesting and immediately receptive way. Newspaper articles, sports quizzes, directions, telling people about yourself.

Goethe was nowhere to be seen, I can assure you.

 

[dtlyn]

Whether you are 'lucky enough' to be born in an Irish speaking area or attend a Gaelscoil, well that just life.

That's such a stupid, stupid comment.

 

[casiopea]

Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking

The education system that awards an extra x% for doing Chemistry in Irish ( required by all the Americal Multinational Pharama companies? ) does.

Im not really too sure why you are posting this to my comment. I didnt say it didnt? My point was its the parents choice as oppose to the childs choice (the johnny cabra and sean gaeilge used in the analogy).

Thats rubbish. If a Polish family have to resort to sending their 4 year old to a Gaelscoil to compete on a level plane on the CEO there's something wrong. Either way, what are the chances of this happening? Are there Gaeilscoils in Ongar or Lexlip? Or evens schools there with sufficent capacity to get the basics right?

Its not rubbish, I am an immigrant myself. There are things I cant avail of here that my children will. Its a fact of life being foreigner. There is nothing stopping future (and current) generations of foreigners and Irish people availing of the many opportunities in Ireland - just because they didnt attend irish school doesnt mean these opportunities are not available to them.

That is absolutely not the solution. In a country with the least Education Monetary Investment in europe and a global economy with demand for high class graduates with global skillsets, the money is better spent on schools for Ongar, increased capacity for the likes of Mochtas in Carpenterstown and getting taught the basics correctly ( Maths?)

I too agree that money would be better spent on improving the quality of current schools in those areas and getting taught the basics correctly. I was trying to answer the question as to how johnny cabra (used in the analogy) could attend irish school. More irish schools would have to open up in these areas and it would have to be affordable to Johnny cabra's parents - this would cost money. Would I prefer money to be spent on opening a scoil-lan-gaeileach in Cabra or spent on improving basic subjects? I would prefer the latter.

Yes it was, it was horrible. German was taught in a much more interesting and immediately receptive way. Newspaper articles, sports quizzes, directions, telling people about yourself.

Goethe was nowhere to be seen, I can assure you.

I am sorry you had such a horrible time with it, it sounds like your teacher let you down. It doesnt mean irish is rammed down our throats though.

 

[Rovers1901]

Some people just have a thing about Irish and are against any attempt to encourage/promote or reward its use.

There are Gaelscoileanna in areas such as Leixlip (I presume you picked this as you see it as some sort of immigrant hotspot??), if fact there's a very good one there. They're national schools , open to all , irrespective of background.

The syllabus in Irish in primary schools has been completely overhauled as has the second level syllabus. The old system is widely recognised as having had problems. Look to Wales where they acknowledge that Welsh language education has been of vital importance in the growth of the language there. Spending money on Irish is not a waste of time, anything that encourages or promotes bilingualism should be applauded. Gaining a second language facilitates language learning in later life.
The focus in National Schools should be on developing skills in English/Irish and Maths.

Just beacuse some people don't like Irish (i hated Maths, don't think it should be dropped, even though a lot of it was a waste of time) doesn't mean we should drop it. It's our national language and a living lanaguage.

This thread is going off topic and over old ground.

 

[terrysgirl33]

Why didn't Johnny Cabra go to gaelscoil Bharra in Cabra?

 

[truthseeker]

Some people just have a thing about Irish and are against any attempt to encourage/promote or reward its use.

Just beacuse some people don't like Irish (i hated Maths, don't think it should be dropped, even though a lot of it was a waste of time) doesn't mean we should drop it. It's our national language and a living lanaguage.

This thread is going off topic and over old ground.

I think the point that the OP made is being completely missed here.

Its not about 'having a thing against Irish' - its about an unfair examination marking system.

Its not about 'some people dont like Irish' - its about one student having an unfair advantage over another due to background, parents choice of school or individual flair in a language that allows that student to pick up extra marks in subjects unrelated to the language.

The discussion here holds true no matter what the 'favoured' language is - if students were picking up extra marks for sitting examinations in French then you would be unable to use the 'some people dont like Irish' argument.

 

[casiopea]

I think the point that the OP made is being completely missed here.

The OP's original point has been addressed by both sides in the first 2 pages, so it wasnt missed as such.

Its probably time for locking.

 

[dtlyn]

I think the point that the OP made is being completely missed here.

Its not about 'having a thing against Irish' - its about an unfair examination marking system.

Its not about 'some people dont like Irish' - its about one student having an unfair advantage over another due to background, parents choice of school or individual flair in a language that allows that student to pick up extra marks in subjects unrelated to the language.

The discussion here holds true no matter what the 'favoured' language is - if students were picking up extra marks for sitting examinations in French then you would be unable to use the 'some people dont like Irish' argument.

I agree.

last word to me though?

Why didn't Johnny Cabra go to gaelscoil Bharra in Cabra?

Possibly because it is a) a primary school located beside b) a secondary school with a not-too-great reputation.

Totally off point now, lock this thread away!

 

[DrMoriarty]

Moved (with a permanent redirect left in place) to Letting Off Steam, which is the best description for some (but not all) of the posts.

 

[ragazza]

I dont see why some people have such a bee in their bonnet about the extra % for sitting the exams in irish.

Anyway, it affects a tiny number of people.
- I presume all the people who sit their exams in Irish went to a Gaelschoil. So in any given year, out of all the student sitting their Leaving Cert, how many are from a Gaelschoil?
- Then from the Gaelschoil, how many will actually choose to sit the exams in Irish? (as Caseopia eloquently pointed out, since it is so difficult, not all Gaelschoil student sit the exams in irish).
- Then for the people who sit the exams in irish, how many will get a borderline mark (like 89% for example) where the extra % will push them into a new grade (e.g. A2 to A1).
So it's a tiny minority of the students, who are even affected by this.

Also, I'm not clear on the marking structure, but it seems to be skewed towards weaker students getting lower marks, so the % increase reduces as the marks get higher.

For the huge effort in becoming fluent in another language, and sitting exams in that language without the support of all the text-books/dictionaries etc being available, I think the students well deserve their few extra percent.

 

[rabbit]

Dead languages may well be taught in other countries but I dont think that grades are falsified there because of proficency in these languages.

I also studied Irish for the same period and have never, ever come across a situation in which it has been of the slightest help to me.

I agree also with a previous poster that one of the reasons the Irish are so bad at speaking European languages is the language "overload" that ensues by devoting so much time to having Irish rammed down their throats.

excellent points well put

 

[RainyDay]

Does the Dept Education feel the need to annotate certificates to show the extra marks given for the Irish language as it does for other cases?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

It would be more transparent to set college points levels openly at different settings for the two situations. i.e. Say engineering UCD for English speakers 450 points for Irish 425. It's still discrimination but at least everyone would see it for what it is and my guess is there would be uproar.

I love it!

I really despise this discrimination thing. At the higher end (where the points race really counts) Irish earns a whopping 30% of marks missed. This is huge for such things as medicine. UCD Med is dominated by Colaiste Begorrah entrants.

But it would be political dynamite to dismantle this discrimination. No party proposes it.

Highflyer has found the solution. Give the results both with and without the advantage. Let CAO continue to use the bloated figures but let employers see through the deception and use the correct figures.

At this level of transparency it wouldn't be long before there was a popular outcry to do the honest thing.

 

[SarahMc]

UCD Med is dominated by Colaiste Begorrah entrants.

Those Begorrah Micks with their shillelagh sticks, getting drunk and fighting and hauled off in paddy wagons, they should go back to where they came from to study... oh hang on...