John O'Shea from GOAL on Sky News

[Wiggles]

I am just after sitting sown and watching John O'Shea from GOAL being interviewed on Sky News about the upcoming G8 summit. I was amazed to finally here someone talk about the issues in Africa with a real understanding of what is going on and how it can be resolved. He for once spoke of how no matter how much money you pump in some of the countries all that will happen is that the corrupt Despot running the place will fill his Swiss bank account a little more. Helping the people in these countries get real regime change should be the first step opposed to pumping more money into a deep dark hole that will never get to the people that really need it.

Made me very proud to hear an Irish person talk about this with such great passion and understanding. I think Bob Geldof and Bono have the ability to get the mases listening, but what is also needed is someone like John O'Shea to bring knowledge of the real issues to the table.

This post is not a question or letting off steam but I felt it was nessecary to praise John O'Shea and GOAL.

 

[Purple]

I agree. He's the man who said that the only organisation in the world that could solve the problems in Africa is the U.S. Marines. I'm sure he didn't mean that literally but he was getting the same point across.

 

[CCOVICH]

Helping the people in these countries get real regime change should be the first step......

That may be so, but the US (who else has the will or resources to do it?) hasn't been very successful in Somalia, Afghanistan or Iraq. The few successful (little or no bloodshed) examples of regime change that I can think of in recent times are in Eastern Europe (Georgia and the Ukraine spring immediately to mind). This was accomplished through the will of the ordinary people, rather than any military aggression. Zimbabwe is an obvious example of where this should have happened recently, but alas the tyrant Mugabe remains in power. What people fail to realise about Africa (and to a lesser extent, Asia) is that tribal and religious loyalties are far greater than loyalty to the country itself (most, if not all, African countries are the product of their former colonial powers, and are a mess because they were left in a mess-see Rwanda, Sudan, Zimbabwe etc.)

I agree that John O'Shea has a lot of good things to say, but actually putting these things into practice is not an easy (this doesn't imply that it shouldn't be tried) task.

 

[Wiggles]

The few successful (little or no bloodshed) examples of regime change that I can think of in recent times are in Eastern Europe (Georgia and the Ukraine spring immediately to mind). This was accomplished through the will of the ordinary people, rather than any military aggression.

True, the US has made a mess of it but their motives in Iraq and Afghanistan have been because of oil and money. Not helping the local people. I believe recently in Ethiopia when people took to the streets to protest against the rigged elections they were met with Tanks and guns. Surely the West should be able to support people in these causes. Sudan would be another example of where military force should have been used.

I'm not so naive to think that this is the answer we have all been missing, but it does seem to make more sense then lining the pockets of the despots causing a great deal of the hardship.

 

[Purple]

A big problem is also the fact that despite the nominal independence that most African countries have attempted to enjoy since the late 1940's onward for most of the last 50 odd years most of them have been client states of on the one hand their former colonial masters and on the other the two superpowers of the cold war. Africa and Southeast Asia are the two places where the cold war got hot. In order to fight their proxy war in Africa the USA and USSR found it necessary to overthrow a number of democratically elected governments, the Congo and the brief glimmer of hope that was snuffed out in the 1950's by the Americans is a case in point. The fact that the current war in the Congo (the biggest war the world has seen since the second world war) and the genocide in Rwanda can be to a great extent linked to this act goes to show the effect that this sort of action had on the continent.
The fact that French, American and British (amongst others) mining and oil companies can overthrow countries, cause a civil war, buy a government or cause it’s home country to send in the troops (see France in west Africa) doesn’t help either.

The solution to most of Africa’s problems lie in Africa but international and NGO aid will solve nothing without a change in the way we allow multi billion dollar (and Euro) companies to behave and how we view the ownership of the continents assets.
If government was for the people and by the people and the people were materially comfortable then the tribal divisions would be a much smaller overall factor on the geopolitical makeup of the region.

That’s by two cents worth anyway.

 

[oysterman]

Made me very proud to hear an Irish person talk about this with such great passion and understanding. I think Bob Geldof and Bono have the ability to get the mases listening, but what is also needed is someone like John O'Shea to bring knowledge of the real issues to the table.

I've no doubt it's against posting rules but if anybody out there would like to do something concrete for the week that's in it please follow this link and set up a standing order:
[broken link removed]

And don't forget to reclaim your income tax on such donations. Remember that €50 per month from you will be worth over €1,000 annually to a registered charity if you're a higher rate taxpayer:
[broken link removed]

 

[RainyDay]

I've no doubt it's against posting rules but if anybody out there would like to do something concrete for the week that's in it please follow this link and set up a standing order:
[broken link removed]

HI Oysterman - Please don't take this the wrong way. I don't in any doubt your good intentions or the great work done by GOAL.

However, it is worth pointing out that the whole spirit of the week that is in it, is that charity is not the answer. It's time for justice and structural change to let Africa trade its way out of poverty.

I'm not suggesting that you/others should not donate to Goal. But do think about the long term solutions as well.

 

[oysterman]

Apologies for not getting back quicker - have been away.

Couldn't agree more with you, Rainy, in a sense. Of course the issues of the moment are Fair Trade and Debt Relief. I'm as anxious that the G8 deliver on these as the next person. The West (or, more correctly, the North) must accept the blame for the burden of our twin policies of lending recklessly and then trading in such a one-sided way as to make so called Developing nations unable to achieve the economic growth required to pay us back.

However, I'm still of the belief that NGO's have a huge role to play. Some reasons in no particular order:

1) Macro policies will not always provide specific solutions - at least not quickly enough. If a remote village needs a clinic built and staffed and the next generation of healthcare workers trained, then you can wait for economic growth in that country to provide the resources or you can go in and do it today. It's charity I know (as opposed to justice) but I'm not sure those who benefit from the primary healthcare and immunisation programmes provided will be all that bothered by the semantics.

2) Africa has suffered, and continues in very many instances to suffer, appalling governance. The origins of this lie in colonialism - if you do not permit a people to have a role in government and high level administration for generations then it's hardly surprising that the transition to democracy does not yield a new era of honesty and diligence immediately. The NGO's must provide a check and balance to the tendency for aid to go walkabout into bank accounts in Zurich. This is one of the reasons I am such a strong supporter of Goal and John O'Shea - he has never been afraid to tell it as it is in Africa. On the contrary, he often seems a bit harsh when commenting on African regimes - good for him because Africa needs less cheerleaders and more straight talkers.

3) Private donation is needed to make good on the venality of our own Taoiseach who was prepared to make promises on ODA when he was running for the UN Security Council but was obviously, at the time was making the promise, prepared to drop it as soon as he got the votes he needed. It was just about the most cynical thing Fianna Fail has ever done - and it simply beggars belief that the PD's were prepared to stand idly by (and indeed to marginalise Liz O'Donnell who at least has the decency to be ashamed if not the courage of her convictions to resign). If we can't be relied upon as a nation to make good on our promises to the world's poorest then the national basking in the feelgood shadow of Sir Bob and Bono's efforts at the weekend is simply nauseating.

 

[Betsy Og]

A fair bit of Bono & Bob bashing at the moment. So maybe there could be a % of self-promotion but so what, most people just dont bother to try to make a difference - so are people so obsessed by the motivation as long as the outcome is positive.

Geldof gets the brunt of it - but if he could control the moaning D4 accent and the angry young man thing then people would give him more of the credit he deserves.

John O'Shea - rarely seems to talk without foaming at the mouth. A bit disconcerting when you get the odd despatch about the % of donations that actually make it to charity, shouldnt transparency be key - I hear NGO's and charities being talked of as "an industry", why is this so?? Shouldnt public confidence in charities be a huge issue - if people are or become cynical then the needy suffer.

2 Q's

1. What the personal equivalent of GDP - is it gross wages? Isnt the target 0.07% or .0007. Out of €40,000 gross thats only €28.

2. Should there be an umbrella over all charities, that a general donation could be given to, and they would decide which charity should get the money based on immediate needs, equitable mix between domestic and overseas charity - i.e. informed people taking a bit of the judgement out of it for the ordinary punter and possibly rewarding the most efficient charities (% aid gets to end user)? I would consider setting up S.O. to such an org. You could also plug for your own personal favourite as well.

 

[ubiquitous]

3) Private donation is needed to make good on the venality of our own Taoiseach who was prepared to make promises on ODA when he was running for the UN Security Council but was obviously, at the time was making the promise, prepared to drop it as soon as he got the votes he needed. It was just about the most cynical thing Fianna Fail has ever done - and it simply beggars belief that the PD's were prepared to stand idly by (and indeed to marginalise Liz O'Donnell who at least has the decency to be ashamed if not the courage of her convictions to resign). If we can't be relied upon as a nation to make good on our promises to the world's poorest then the national basking in the feelgood shadow of Sir Bob and Bono's efforts at the weekend is simply nauseating.

Taken in isolation the above is fair comment but there is also another side to the story - that the 0.7% of GDP benchmark is in itself a flawed measurement of a state's commitment to overseas aid.

For starters, GDP is a very unreliable measurement of a country's wealth. In Ireland's case, there is general agreement among economists that our GDP statistics have been hopelessly distorted by transfer pricing profit recording by multinationals with units here. It has been said previously that Pfizer's Viagra manufacturing operation here has alone had a significant effect on our GDP despite the fact that almost all profits recorded here end up being repatriated elsewhere. One another level, I think it was Fintan O'Toole who once made the point that the average GDP per capita for the oil-producing regions of Nigeria is very high despite the fact that almost everyone living there is doing so in dire poverty.

Additionally, many of the countries with apparently impressive aid records have achieved this in a bogus way by imposing conditions on aid that make it compulsory on donee countries to buy goods and services from themselves - sometimes at extortionate rates. Ireland does not do this. We could probably achieve 0.7% tomorrow if we did so. Would this be acceptable? Not to me anyhow...

Its very easy to lacerate FF, PD, FG or others for the limitations of Ireland's overseas aid programme but at the very least our country can be commended for not following the cynical approach of several of our peers.

 

[Gabriel]

In relation to charities its my understanding that GOAL is one of the best out there in relation to their overheards. In charity terms they have a very good reputation.

As for Geldof and Bono. In my book this is very straight forward.
Geldof is a very, very smart man. One only has to listen to him in an interview to understand that he has other (selfless) agendas going on behind the publicity. Geldof realises his reach is limited and makes the best of what he has...ie publicity appeal.
As a matter of fact he's said it many times...Live 8 was also about raising awareness. Actually it was probably more about that than anything else. We already know that the real solution to Africa's problems lies in its governments but Geldof can do sweet fa about that situation. Make Poverty History has heightened awareness of a situation that the world was fast forgetting.

As for Bono I'm sorry I just think he's an egotistical idiot. He has a This post will be deleted if not edited immediately complex and I have very little time for him. You can tell me he does a lot of good all you want but I still think it's his ego he's stroking and I don't think he really knows what the hell he's at half the time either.

 

[RainyDay]

Taken in isolation the above is fair comment but there is also another side to the story - that the 0.7% of GDP benchmark is in itself a flawed measurement of a state's commitment to overseas aid.

Hi Ubi - I accept all that you say about the dangers of using GDP as a benchmark. However, it's important to remember that all these dangers were clearly visible to Bertie when he went before the UN and made the pledge to reaching 0.7%. It was of course entirely co-incidental that he made the pledge around the same time as Ireland was seeking support from African & other countries to get voted onto the Security Council.

Shame on Bertie for his hypocracy and shame on Conor Lenihan for failing to stand up & be counted as Minister for Overseas Aid.

 

[Betsy Og]

Fair play to him for getting around to eating some Turkish food - didnt quite make it to the kebab though - flippin eejit.

 

[ubiquitous]

Hi Rainyday

Bertie possibly felt himself boxed into a corner when he made that pledge. At this stage, I would respect him more for openly ignoring the promise than taking the cynical route of fulfilling the committment by wasting money on dodgy "aid projects" designed to enrich Irish companies operating in the Third World - as many countries do for their own companies.

 

[RainyDay]

Bertie possibly felt himself boxed into a corner when he made that pledge.

By who?

At this stage, I would respect him more for openly ignoring the promise than taking the cynical route of fulfilling the committment by wasting money on dodgy "aid projects" designed to enrich Irish companies operating in the Third World - as many countries do for their own companies.

He's not really 'openly ignoring it' - he's claiming that it wasn't really a promise in the first place - it was really 'a target'. I wish I got away with that kind of revisionist spinning with my boss.

But his only option isn't to waste it on dodgy projects - He has the option of spending it on un-dodgy projects, but putting what ever level of controls & supervision is necessary to ensure that things aren't dodgy.

 

[Purple]

The record of Irish governments on 3rd world aid over the last 25 years has been consistently abysmal. Bertie is no better or worse than Haughie, Fitzgerald, Reynolds or Bruton. The only notable exception to this is the brave stand that Liz O'Donnell took as junior minister for foreign affairs with responsibility for overseas aid when she said publicly that she would resign if the proposed cuts went through.
I'm sure rainyday can tell us why this is not true and was nothing but cynical manoeuvring by one of the evil right-wingers in the PD's.

 

[sherib]

I've been following this thread with interest and wonder if people here think the outcome of the G8 summit was good or just as little as countries could get away with. I'm not overly impressed. Even Tony Blair acknowledged that the package fell far short of demands. The richest countries give about 42 billion euro a year in aid which TB wanted to double but has now been delayed by four years - not becoming available until 2010.

[QUOTE Irish Independent]
Tony Blair failed to get the US to endorse a plan for a financial device known as the international financial facility under which governments would borrow money from the financial market and deliver it straight to the frontline.
[/QUOTE] Britain also failed to get the G8 to pledge to eliminate its subsidies for exported food by a specific date. Billions of debt are supposed to be cancelled but we don't know when or which countries will benefit.

Our Taoiseach said on yesterday's news that we give four times per capita the amount given by the countries of the G8. That doesn't say much for them. A week ago on Sky News he said he couldn't ask "his people" to give any more. A figure of 5-600 million euro was mentioned. I believe the reason we are far from the 0.7% promised is because no one expected our economy to continue to grow and therefore the current net amount has increased beyond expectations. This does not excuse our reneging on our promise. No doubt Bertie is thinking of the reduction in CAP subsidies. That shortfall will have to be made good by taxpayers I expect.

Africa will never play in a fair market so long as it hasn't got access to European and American markets on the same terms that apply to us in rich countries. And aid, as currently structured, will continue to be tantamount to filling a bath of water with the plug out.

John O'Shea has railed for years about the futility of aid going to corrupt governments but what country will grasp that nettle? A photo of Bush shaking hands with the Nigerian President spoke volumes. Oil is where it's at. Here's a link that differentiates between GDP and GNP - accepting that economics is not an exact science.
[broken link removed][broken link removed]

 

[Wiggles]

I've been following this thread with interest and wonder if people here think the outcome of the G8 summit was good

Personally I don't really know what outcome there has been from the G8 summit. I heard Bono on the radio saying that this is not the end, but the beginning of the end. But is it not same old, same old?!?!?

I thought fair trade was supposed to be the big target, but I for one have not heard anything more on that.

Perhaps the real details of it all are being currently not being reported due to the tragic events in London.

Africa will never play in a fair market so long as it hasn't got access to European and American markets on the same terms that apply to us in rich countries. And aid, as currently structured, will continue to be tantamount to filling a bath of water with the plug out.

I feel the same way!

A photo of Bush shaking hands with the Nigerian President spoke volumes. Oil is where it's at

I think once your country has oil and is friendly to the west you can pretty much get away with whatever you want....... Just ask King Fahd

 

[RainyDay]

The only notable exception to this is the brave stand that Liz O'Donnell took as junior minister for foreign affairs with responsibility for overseas aid when she said publicly that she would resign if the proposed cuts went through.
I'm sure rainyday can tell us why this is not true and was nothing but cynical manoeuvring by one of the evil right-wingers in the PD's.

Àctually no - I'd give credit to Luscious Liz on this one - she did made a real stand with some limited effect, unlike Kebabs Lenihan who was more interested in toeing the party line.

 

[sherib]

In the interest of objectivity and fairness, shame on Liz O'Donnell for not resigning when she said she would.

Originally posted by RainyDay
Shame on Bertie for his hypocracy and shame on Conor Lenihan for failing to stand up & be counted as Minister for Overseas Aid.

She happens to be someone I did admire but, in this instance, she let herself down. No better than the rest in spite of the posturing. They're all good at plamas but when it comes to walking the walk, there's not much between them.