Ivan Yates: "We bailed out the banks..."

dub_nerd

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We don't put bankrupts in the pillory or the poorhouse these days. It's called civilisation.
 

RedOnion

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We don't put bankrupts in the pillory or the poorhouse these days. It's called civilisation.
I completely agree, we shouldn't. And I'm delighted the bankruptcy laws changed here.

However, my view of bankruptcy is that it should be like wiping the slate clean and starting over. No debts, and no material assets (other than a modest family home).

I'd take a lot more risks financially if I knew I'd get all the upside to myself, but if it failed I could walk away from my debts and keep a substantial country mansion, and a guaranteed pension if things went south.

And I'd write personal guarantees every day of the week if I knew they couldn't be fully enforced because my wife didn't get legal advice before signing.

I've oversimplified this, but I find it interesting the number of cases where spouses, who were involved in the running of multi million euro businesses for years, suddenly claim they didn't know what they were doing when they signed personal guarantees. Or people with large ancestral homes and lands that can't be touched where their spouse has an interest because they spent a few quid of their own on its upkeep.
 

IdesofMarch

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I completely agree, we shouldn't. And I'm delighted the bankruptcy laws changed here.

However, my view of bankruptcy is that it should be like wiping the slate clean and starting over. No debts, and no material assets (other than a modest family home).

I'd take a lot more risks financially if I knew I'd get all the upside to myself, but if it failed I could walk away from my debts and keep a substantial country mansion, and a guaranteed pension if things went south.

And I'd write personal guarantees every day of the week if I knew they couldn't be fully enforced because my wife didn't get legal advice before signing.

I've oversimplified this, but I find it interesting the number of cases where spouses, who were involved in the running of multi million euro businesses for years, suddenly claim they didn't know what they were doing when they signed personal guarantees. Or people with large ancestral homes and lands that can't be touched where their spouse has an interest because they spent a few quid of their own on its upkeep.
Red Onion,

Its terrible that old law stuff, if only it wasn't there!
 

Sarenco

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Ehhh, wrong again Sarenco. Here is a headline that refutes your false news.
The body of the article to which that headline relates makes it absolutely clear that Anglo never in fact wrote residential mortgages.

They may well have considered offering stapled finance when trying to offload repo’d properties on their books but it never actually happened.

Anglo never issued any RMBS securities, as suggested, for the simple reason that they never originated any resi mortgages.

I know you’re not particularly interested in getting your facts straight but your obvious lies really do look foolish at this stage.
 

IdesofMarch

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Ehh wrong again Sarenco, the hint is in the title "Anglo Irish now doing residential mortgages to get value"

The body of the article states that from 2011 Anglo did write residential loans, prior to this, they provided residential mortgages in the guise of term loans. These were grant to most staff members and friends, cousin, sons and daughters etc of important customers. RMBS has nothing to do with it. A bank can issue residential mortgages without issuing residential mortgage backed securities (RMBS).

Here is the opening para of the article in question:

"Anglo Irish Bank, which is gradually winding down its loan book, is now providing residential mortgages to help encourage buyers to purchase apartments and houses at some of the projects it funded in the boom".


 

Sarenco

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@IdesofMarch

Here’s a link to the article, which states quite explicitly that Anglo was never in the mortgage market.
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/business/irish/anglo-irish-now-doing-residential-mortgages-to-get-value-26617296.html

By 2011, when the article was written, Anglo was being wound down. I’m sure it was trying to offload properties by offering stapled finance (as I’ve already stated). But Anglo never originating any resi mortgages.

In any event, Seanie Fitz was obviously well gone by 2011 so your original suggestion that he colluded with anybody on the golf course to fix mortgage rates makes zero sense.

We already know you struggle to understand law and economics. Apparently, we can also add history to the list of topics that you cannot grasp.
 

IdesofMarch

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Sarenco,

if you bothered to do any in depth analysis of Anglo Irish Bank and look through the list of Anglo Irish Bank's subsidiaries you will find several that offered residential loans. Sure Allied Dunbar alone specialised in endowment mortgages. Your personal attack on me shows a level of pomposity that beggars belief. Please grow up or crawl back under a stone.




AALP England Limited
AALP Galashiels Limited
AALP Guernsey Limited
AALP Sunbury Limited
AIT (Nominees) Limited
Alexan Limited
Alpha Ceres GP LLC
Alpha Ceres REIT, Inc.
Beta Ceres GP, Inc.
Delta Ceres (STAP), Inc.


Anglo Irish Bank Limited
Anglo Irish Assurance Company Limited
Anglo Irish Corporate Bank Limited
Anglo Irish International Finance
Anglo Irish Asset Management Limited
Buyway Group Limited
Pagnol Limited Anglo Irish Nominees Limited
Anglo Irish Bank (Nominees) Limited
Geranth Limited Pegasus Nominees Limited
Anglo Irish Bank ESOP Limited
Anglo Irish Capital Partners Limited
Anglo Irish Administration Limited
Anglo Irish Financial Services Limited
CF Limited
Modify 5 Limited
Anglo Irish International Financial Services Limited
Ansbacher Bankers Limited
IBOC Limited
Irish Buyway Limited
Knightsdale Limited
Sparta Financial Services
Fitzwilliam Leasing Limited
Anglo Irish Mortgage Bank
Anglo Irish Funding 1 Limited
Anglo Irish Funding 2 Limited
Anglo Irish Funding 3 Limited
Anglo Irish Funding 4 Limited
Anglo Irish Funding 5 Limited
Anglo Irish Funding 6 Limited
Gertonabbey Limited
Aragone Limited
Tincorra Investments Limited
Filipa Limited
Castle Farm Telford Nominees Limited
Colmore Square No. 1 Limited
Colmore Square No. 2 Limited
D MacDonald Estates (Limerick) Limited
Georges Square Property No. 1 Limited
Georges Square Property No. 2 Limited
Manchan Limited
Tuscanan Limited
Wentbridge Properties Limited
Exhort Limited
Moschus Limited
Phaenom Limited
Anglo Irish Bank Corporation Limited
Anglo Irish Capital Funding Limited
AIT (Nominees) Limited
Anglo Irish Holdings IOM Limited
Steenwal B.V.
Anglo Irish Bank Corporation (International) PLC
Anglo Irish Nominees (IOM) Limited
Anglo Irish Trust (IOM) Limited
Alexan Limited
Beaugrand Sarl
Belalan Bischoffshein Freehold SPRL
Belalan Bischoffshein Leashold SPRL
Belalan Holdings SPRL
Belalan Louise Freehold SPRL
Belalan Louise Leashold SPRL
Belalan Meir Freehold SPRL
Belalan Meir Leashold SPRL
Berala Sarl
Castle Farm Campus (Telford) Limited
Erste DIG Vermogensverwaltungs GmbH
Chancery Place Limited Sarl
Fellstar Limited
Fenlay Limited
Finsbury Dials Sarl
Harpen Ostenhellweg GmbH
Heywood Park Limited
Kernesk Limited
Ladyland Limited
Moreton Limited
Newbury (GP) Limited
Petersen Limited
Portwall One Limited
QBC Czech SRO
QDH Czech SRO
Racol Sarl
Sajola Sarl
Salado Enterprises Limited
Sheps (PHFL) Limited
Starcrest Limited
Talca Enterprises Limited
Tarnold Holdings Sarl
West Port Sarl
Westow Limited
Woolgate SA
Zeus Investments 1 SPRL
Zeus Investments 2 SPRL
555 NMA Investors LLC
Alpha Ceres GP LLC
Alpha Ceres REIT, Inc.
Beta Ceres GP, Inc.
Delta Ceres (STAP), Inc.
Gamma Ceres GP, Inc.
Zeta Ceres Capital, Inc.
Zeta Ceres GP, Inc.
Zeta Ceres New York LLC
Zeta Ceres REIT, Inc.
Zeta Ceres, Inc.
Anglo Irish Boston Corporation
Anglo Irish New York Corporation
Anglo Irish Chicago Corporation
10 South State Street Holdings LLC
10 South State Street Property LLC
Mainland Investments GP Inc
Mainland Ventures Corp
Project B Investor Limited Partnership
Project B Investor II Limited Partnership
MBB Investment Partners Limited Partnership
CWB Holdings Limited Partnership
CWB Hotel Limited Partnership
CWB Retail Limited Partnership
CWB Apartments Limited Partnership
Beta Ceres Limited Partnership
Gamma Ceres Limited Partnership
Zeta Ceres Limited Partnership
SEAPORT CPA Limited Partnership
10 South State Street Property Investor, Limited Partnership
Mainland Investments 625 NMA, Limited Partnership
TA Newbury Street Fund Investor, Limited Partnership
10 South State Street Property GP, LLC
Anglo Irish Equity Limited
Anglo Irish Private Capital Limited
Anglo Irish Leasing Limited
Berfors Nominees Limited
Finance 2000 plc
Clickinput Limited
CDB (UK) Limited
Anglo Irish Property Lending Limited
Anglo Irish Property Investors Limited
Anglo Irish Finance Limited
Anglo Irish Credit plc
Anglo Irish Commercial Properties (No.1) Limited
Anglo Irish Commercial Properties Limited
Anglo Irish Carry Partner Limited
Anglo Irish Capital GP Limited
Anglo Irish Asset Limited
Anglo Irish Asset Finance plc
Amblepath Properties Limited
Argyle Investment Finance Limited
Anglo Irish Treasury Financing Limited
Anglo Irish GP Holdings Limited
Anglo Irish Property Investors GP Limited
Sutherland Finance And Leasing
Anglo Irish Covered Bonds Limited Liability Partnership
AALP Guernsey Limited
AALP Galashiels Limited
AALP England Limited
AALP Sunbury Limited
IFT Nominees Limited
CDB Investments Limited
Industrial Funding Trust Limited
Anglo Irish German Retail Limited
Soundbow Limited Liability Partnership
Anglo Irish Covered Bonds Finance Limited
Moorevale Investments Limited
Moorevale Investments (Brigade House) Limited
Carisbrooke Anglo Ventures Limited
Carisbrooke Property Investments Limited
Carisbrooke Properties Limited
Carisbrooke Properties (Barry) Limited
Carisbrooke Central Investments Limited
Carisbrooke Properties (Basingstoke) Limited
Carisbrooke Central Limited
GPF Investments Limited
Carisbrooke Lime Street Limited
Countryroad Investments Limited
Taurus Euro Retail Holding Sarl
Taurus Euro Retail Finance Sarl
Taurus Euro Retail Investment Sarl
etc,
etc,

By the way Sarenco, can you tell me what a tracker mortgage is?
 
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Sarenco

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@IdesofMarch

When you’re in a hole, you should really stop digging.

No subsidiary of Anglo was ever in the mortgage business.

Anglo did acquire a sterling loan book from Allied Dunbar at one stage but no Anglo group company ever originated any meaningful home loan book. They may have advanced a very occasional loan to a commercial client that was secured on a residential property but they were never in the residential mortgage business.

Acoordingly, the idea that Seanie Fitz colluded with anybody regarding variable mortgage rates is delusional.
 
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Purple

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@IdesofMarch

When you’re in a hole, you should really stop digging.

No subsidiary of Anglo was ever in the mortgage business.

Anglo did acquire a sterling loan book from Allied Dunbar at one stage but no Anglo group company ever originated any meaningful home loan book. They may have advanced a very occasional loan to a commercial client that was secured on a residential property but they were never in the residential mortgage business.

Acoordingly, the idea that Seanie Fitz colluded with anybody regarding variable mortgage rates is delusional.
IofM is much smarter than the rest of us, I know because he keeps telling me, so maybe that's why he doesn't understand the point that you are making. I'm thick so I understand... understand?

It must be a burden to be so much smarter than everyone else but we all have out crosses to bear.
 

Sunny

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Sarenco,

if you bothered to do any in depth analysis of Anglo Irish Bank and look through the list of Anglo Irish Bank's subsidiaries you will find several that offered residential loans. Sure Allied Dunbar alone specialised in endowment mortgages. Your personal attack on me shows a level of pomposity that beggars belief. Please grow up or crawl back under a stone..

Anglo Irish Bank never operated in the residential mortgage market. Can you show me one advert where Anglo offered a residential mortgage or published their mortgage rates?? Anglo offered very specific large mortgages and buy to let mortgages to their commercial clients but no-one was ever able to rock up to Anglo Irish Bank and ask for a home loan.

Which ones of those subsidiaries provided Irish Residential mortgages that Sean Fitzpatrick decided that residential variable rate home loan rates were really a big ticket item for the bank. Anglo did many things but collusion on rates was not one of them. It was the opposite in fact. Anglo undercut the other Irish banks on the vast majority of deals to the extent that the other banks couldn't work out how Anglo was doing it. It was a pure volume game with Anglo. They took losses on certain deals to win profitable repeat business. It was all about the 'relationship' with the developer with them. They had no interest in colluding with Irish banks when it came to lending. The culture in Anglo was to crush the other banks, not work with them. Of course that led to other banks chasing and chasing deals and in the end it became a race to the bottom.[/QUOTE]
 

Webster

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My friend worked for IBRC and he showed me an Anglo Irish Bank mortgage that he has on his house when he worked for Anglo. I will ask him will he let me post it to the forum.
 

LDFerguson

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My friend worked for IBRC and he showed me an Anglo Irish Bank mortgage that he has on his house when he worked for Anglo. I will ask him will he let me post it to the forum.
I don't think this really changes any of the arguments. Anglo Irish Bank did not sell residential mortgages to the general public and so they were not influential in the pricing of residential mortgages as a competitor bank. They may well have lent money to their own staff.
 

Webster

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I don't think this really changes any of the arguments. Anglo Irish Bank did not sell residential mortgages to the general public and so they were not influential in the pricing of residential mortgages as a competitor bank. They may well have lent money to their own staff.
Ok, sorry about that. I think Ansbacher Bankers Ltd had a residential loan portfolio also, if that makes a difference.
 

Duke of Marmalade

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I think the point the Boss is making is that it is populist to talk about bailing out the banks but Ivan would soon be dropped from his show if he complained about bailing out old ladies who sought a wee bit extra by depositing with Anglo.

But I want to consider the macro picture. The boom and bust led to a massive transfer of wealth within Irish society. The 60bn bail out ensured that the Irish taxpayer was on the debit side of this transfer. But it wasn’t the depositors who were on the credit side. They simply got their money back or maybe a trickle of extra interest. Likewise the bond holders. The credit side were those lucky people who got ludicrous prices for their land and property and to a lesser extent the taxpayer who benefitted from unsustainable property taxes.
 

mtp

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And who were the big loan defaulters?

The developers who were simply unable to manage their own financial affairs

Developer who were paid in full for uncompleted contract and letter of undertaking to furnish folio showing man co as owner of land agreed to be sold To man co in compliance with a condition of the pp that will never be furnished AND left works outstanding costs of which being bourne by Joe Soap as owner and member of man co payings charge for works responsibility of a developer who will never do them.

One cost of that bailout CONTINUING is the rubber stamping of national budget by the EU COMMISSION. e..g. If it does not approve say restoration of teacher pay; extension of pyrite scheme, tenancy legislation then may not happen One thing for sure spends out of public funds require discussion between govt and commission.

Another is banks as a charge on public funds and the role of ECB on the bank side.

That was deal between M Noonan an EU but NO DAIL APPROVAL.

M Martin is now calling on Taoiseach to lay before the dail the deal between govt and commission on the manning of the border in the wake of a no deal Brexit as 'the dail is entitled to know'

If the Taoiseach share the opinion of Kenny and Noonan that the govt has authority to make such a deal without dail approval he may have his work cut out for him. The deal in the opinion of ex-director of world trade organization will require Ireland to obtain 'emergency AID '. ?


The Credit Institutions Financial Support Act 08 passed by FF give the min fr finance power to pledge public fund for banks WITHOUT DAIL APPROVAL but is silent on power to share control of public fund with eu commission for the money to pay for bank and public bills without laying deal before dail under art 29 5 2 of constitution. But that is what M Noonan did when he signed Memo of Understanding with IMF and EU. No TD objected .

Ms May has put the deal her govt made with eu before parliament who has spoken. Lest see if our govt put the deal it make with commission on cost of brexit to dail.
 
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Leper

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Back reading a post or two on this thread you could be led to believe that the banks were heroes and were victims. Make no mistake about it, they were more than greedy, were the custodians of "Money Ireland" and screwed up. None of them faced prison. Their branch managers, assistant bank managers "wuz only carrying out orders from ze superiors" nearly all of which have taken lucrative early retirement deals. We rewarded them instead of putting them in jail.
 

Brendan Burgess

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None of them faced prison.
Hi Leper

Why are people sent to prison? Only for committing a criminal offence.

Stupidity, greed and not being a very nice person are not criminal offences in Ireland - fortunately.

Of course, if you have evidence of criminal behaviour, then just provide it to the Gardai. There is no statute of limitations on criminal behaviour.

Brendan
 
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