italian election results: will brussels finally listen to the people

[odyssey06]

All the talk of austerity while we continued to borrow far more than we earned in order to sustain a lifestyle we couldn't really afford. Some knuckling down that was!

Well eh that kinda proves my point. It's as unrealistic to expect Egyptians to vote like the French, as it is to expect all of Europe to act like Germans... and the Italian vote for populism should be seen in that light. I think the limits of EU integration were pushed too far, and this vote in part is a reaction against that. As is Brexit and the Visregad group.

 

[joe sod]

I did read your post and you do know the history of this region better than I do. But with regard to colonialism , it works both ways, after all the ottomans did colonize the Balkans and southern Europe. Anyway I think colonialism is a distraction because how long do we continue with this excuse, another century. I think there needs to be change within the region and I think it is actually starting. I think Saudi Arabia is moving away from religious fundamentalism now, I think they see the writing on the wall , they cannot continue as a modern country and harbour fundamentalists.

 

[Ceist Beag]

Syria was a relatively moderate, wealthy and free country by the standards of the region. In order to remove the reliance by Europe on Russian gas, the main source of hard cash income Russia has, we (the West) tried to force a pipeline from the Gulf through Syria. Syria was supported by Russia and so was between a rock and a hard place so said no. We then started a war to change the government and get the pipeline built.

Purple you're clearly well read on the history in this area so I completely defer to your knowledge here, and I completely accept your point that the west has a large hand in the many wars around the world, but it looks this particular point isn't quite true - at least according to truth-out which seems to make a logical and coherent argument as to why they believe it is not true. That's not saying the US had any legitimate reason to get involved, it's just that their reason for get involved may not be related to the gas line as you suggested.

 

[Purple]

I did read your post and you do know the history of this region better than I do. But with regard to colonialism , it works both ways, after all the ottomans did colonize the Balkans and southern Europe.

They did indeed. The Russians took Crimea from them around the same time America fought it's war of independence, hence their legitimate claim that it is Russian and not part of Ukraine.

Anyway I think colonialism is a distraction because how long do we continue with this excuse, another century. I think there needs to be change within the region and I think it is actually starting. I think Saudi Arabia is moving away from religious fundamentalism now, I think they see the writing on the wall , they cannot continue as a modern country and harbour fundamentalists.

I hope you are right but I doubt it. Colonialism was about economic control and gain. You don't need to have the same level of direct control in the modern world, you just need client government. Client governments may be of the people but they cannot be by the people or for the people.

 

[Purple]

Well eh that kinda proves my point. It's as unrealistic to expect Egyptians to vote like the French, as it is to expect all of Europe to act like Germans... and the Italian vote for populism should be seen in that light. I think the limits of EU integration were pushed too far, and this vote in part is a reaction against that. As is Brexit and the Visregad group.

I don't see the connection and nobody in the EU or Germany is looking for us all to be like Germany.

 

[TheBigShort]

That shows a complete ignorance of the history of the region.

I'm in complete agreement here.

They were doing this because they knew they would never get a VISA and because once in the EU by any means, you are there forever.

No they weren't, they were fleeing a worn torn region. It may have escape your notice but the immigration 'crisis' started not long after the war in Syria.
If what you say is correct, why wasn't there a immigrant crisis before the war? Why have there not been mass boat crossings before the outbreak of war if what they wanted was simply to get into Europe without a visa?

The people of the Middle East are responsible for their own destiny, they are not children to be protected from their own choices

But would it be ok to protect their children from warfare?

Nor is it any outsiders fault that the people of the middle east were unable to make any political progress from the Arab Spring.

The Arab 'Spring' was a mixed bag of affiliates protesting state corruption and mistreatment, labour conditions, food prices, unemployment and other social and economic conditions.
Western media likened to laud over the protests as a genuine, holistic move by the people for democracy and freedom. It wasn't - in the main, food prices were inflating way over what wages were paying.

The corollary of this is that if Middle Eastern & North African countries are not ready for 21st century liberal democracy at home, it is is entirely valid to have concerns about how large numbers of individuals from those countries might be integrated successfully into Western countries - an entirely different scenario to migrations between say Ireland - UK - Australia.

This is lazy commentary. It is repeatedly bandied about but I have never heard anyone describe exactly what it is supposed to mean.
The word 'integrate' itself means to combine or join two or more things together. Meaning as much as immigrants have to 'integrate' with western cultures, it is only really possible if we integrate with their cultures.

 

[Superman]

Someone else said 'only europe sends out ships to "rescue" migrants in the sea and drops them in italy'

Amazing how quickly everyone forgets about the picture of the young boy in the red shirt.

Although not as quickly as this one:

- one of severals children mown down in Nice ( or one could pick several truck attack / other forms of attack from around Europe).

All these scare stories. How we would be taken over by the Poles and Romanians. Its the same now.

I recall government politicians suggesting it was racist scaremongering to suggest that as many as [10-15,000 - or so] Poles would come to Ireland. Not only incorrect by an order of magnitude, but also attempting to smear any questioning of the competence with which it was being handled.

 

[cremeegg]

I recall government politicians suggesting it was racist scaremongering to suggest that as many as [10-15,000 - or so] Poles would come to Ireland. Not only incorrect by an order of magnitude, but also attempting to smear any questioning of the competence with which it was being handled.

I fully agree that the political class had no clue how many Poles would come to Ireland after 2002.

However to conflate the arrival of Poles and other Eastern Europeans in Ireland with truck attacks and dead babies is outrageous, you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Sunny]

- one of severals children mown down in Nice ( or one could pick several truck attack / other forms of attack from around Europe).
I recall government politicians suggesting it was racist scaremongering to suggest that as many as [10-15,000 - or so] Poles would come to Ireland. Not only incorrect by an order of magnitude, but also attempting to smear any questioning of the competence with which it was being handled.

And the winner of the most racist and bigoted post is.............

For a start, the Nice truck attack was not done by a refugee (actually vast vast majority of them weren't) but I guess your problem is that was done by someone who isn't white.

But that can't be it either because apparently you have an issue with white Polish people as well.....

So I will give you the benefit of doubt and presume you are just an idiot rather than racist......

 

[Purple]

I recall government politicians suggesting it was racist scaremongering to suggest that as many as [10-15,000 - or so] Poles would come to Ireland. Not only incorrect by an order of magnitude, but also attempting to smear any questioning of the competence with which it was being handled.

Thankfully far more came than we expected. We got a massive increase in skilled workers, a reduction in the dependency ratio, people who generally had a superior work ethic, people willing to do the jobs we weren't willing to do and specifically in the Trades sector (construction and particularly engineering) tradesmen who were far better trained and more skilled than their Irish counterparts.
There is absolutely no downside to Polish emigration into Ireland. On top of all the economic benefits they also broadened the gene pool.

 

[odyssey06]

Thankfully far more came than we expected. We got a massive increase in skilled workers, a reduction in the dependency ratio, people who generally had a superior work ethic, people willing to do the jobs we weren't willing to do and specifically in the Trades sector (construction and particularly engineering) tradesmen who were far better trained and more skilled than their Irish counterparts.
There is absolutely no downside to Polish emigration into Ireland. On top of all the economic benefits they also broadened the gene pool.

This is just racist nonsense. Should we start deporting natives who have been on welfare for more than a year or who have the gene for cystic fibrosis?

 

[joe sod]

Thankfully far more came than we expected. We got a massive increase in skilled workers, a reduction in the dependency ratio, people who generally had a superior work ethic, people willing to do the jobs we weren't willing to do and specifically in the Trades sector (construction and particularly engineering) tradesmen who were far better trained and more skilled than their Irish counterparts.
There is absolutely no downside to Polish emigration into Ireland. On top of all the economic benefits they also broadened the gene pool.

So it was a good thing because they did not directly compete in your profession. It was probably the case that many polish immigrants were far more skilled than Irish professionals but were kept out of these by dubious rules especially relating to Irish language . This was definitely used as an obstacle to keep polish graduates out of the professions. In reality a one year conversion and English language proficiency course would have been more than adequate to get highly qualified polish professionals into similar jobs in Ireland. In reality most of these ended up working in spar.

However there is a huge difference between migrants from Poland for example who are in the EU and those from outside the EU. Our taxes pay for infrastructure in poland , the same as we benefited from EEC spending in Ireland in the 70s. Its a two way street, however the same onus is not on us to take in migrants from outside EU as there is no two street. We cannot exert control on countries in North africa like we can within the EU, they are simply not in the club therefore they cannot expect the benefits that EU migrants receive and they cannot expect to be admitted to the EU simply by turning up at the border.

 

[cremeegg]

It was probably the case that many polish immigrants were far more skilled than Irish professionals but were kept out of these by dubious rules especially relating to Irish language.

Other than primary school teaching, what other occupation has an Irish language requirement ?

 

[Purple]

This is just racist nonsense. Should we start deporting natives who have been on welfare for more than a year or who have the gene for cystic fibrosis?

Why do you think it is racist?

 

[Purple]

So it was a good thing because they did not directly compete in your profession.

I don't work in a profession, I'm a tradesman.
There is a huge shortage of skilled people in engineering trades (I don't care about qualifications as there is often very little link between qualification and skill) so getting people in from Eastern Europe was very important for my sector. In general I find that the people who go into engineering trades in Poland are more intelligent than their Irish counterparts. I still see Irish people who think they need "a food pair of hands" rather than a reasonably good mind to do well in the sector and so can't cope with the mathematics and programming requirements. Of course that is a general comment and there are many exceptions.

 

[Purple]

However there is a huge difference between migrants from Poland for example who are in the EU and those from outside the EU. Our taxes pay for infrastructure in poland , the same as we benefited from EEC spending in Ireland in the 70s. Its a two way street, however the same onus is not on us to take in migrants from outside EU as there is no two street. We cannot exert control on countries in North africa like we can within the EU, they are simply not in the club therefore they cannot expect the benefits that EU migrants receive and they cannot expect to be admitted to the EU simply by turning up at the border.

I agree. We should only let them in if they have skills we need or if they are refugees fleeing war or oppression somewhere, Syria for example.

...oh, and it was the 70's, 80's, 90's and 00's.
It wasn't until 2016 that we became a (small) net contributor to the EU.

 

[odyssey06]

Why do you think it is racist?

Let's put it this way, if an Italian politician from say Five Star gave a speech where he said that North Africans had to be kept out because they don't have a work ethic, and to protect the Italian gene pool... for some reason such as they carry sickle cell anemia - well, would you call that a racist speech?
I don't see any difference between saying that and what you said, one is a mirror of the other... if you're going to use phrases like "gene pool" I think you need to tread carefully.

 

[Purple]

Let's put it this way, if an Italian politician from say Five Star gave a speech where he said that North Africans had to be kept out because they don't have a work ethic, and to protect the Italian gene pool... for some reason such as they carry sickle cell anemia - well, would you call that a racist speech?
I don't see any difference between saying that and what you said, one is a mirror of the other... if you're going to use phrases like "gene pool" I think you need to tread carefully.

The fact that emigration broadens the gene pool is a positive byproduct. It should not be used as grounds to allow or prevent that emigration. A positive work ethic is a much more subjective thing but in my experience over the last 10-15 years I have found that employees from Eastern Europe have a good work ethic and they certainly miss fewer days work than their Irish born counterparts. But, again, that's just my experience. The gene pool thing is just a fact, as is the fact that the broader your genetic material the less likely you are to suffer from inherited genetic diseases. That's the irony for all the white supremacists; not only are black people more genetically advanced that people of white European origin as we share some DNA with Neanderthals, but the more "mongrel" you are the better it is.

 

[odyssey06]

The fact that emigration broadens the gene pool is a positive byproduct. It should not be used as grounds to allow or prevent that emigration. A positive work ethic is a much more subjective thing but in my experience over the last 10-15 years I have found that employees from Eastern Europe have a good work ethic and they certainly miss fewer days work than their Irish born counterparts. But, again, that's just my experience.

Maybe Italians have experienced encounters with these immigrants and that experience has led them to say enough? You seem to value your own experience and devalue that of Italians.

The gene pool thing is just a fact, as is the fact that the broader your genetic material the less likely you are to suffer from inherited genetic diseases. That's the irony for all the white supremacists; not only are black people more genetically advanced that people of white European origin as we share some DNA with Neanderthals, but the more "mongrel" you are the better it is.

And was it a fact that Ireland's gene pool circa 2000 was in need of improvement?
Is a population of 4 million people insufficient to maintain a healthy gene pool?
Is a population of 60 million people, in Italy's case, insufficient?

 

[Purple]

Maybe Italians have experienced encounters with these immigrants and that experience has led them to say enough? You seem to value your own experience and devalue that of Italians.

The Italians have a problem with refugees, not immigrants. They are two different things.
I do agree that the rest of the EU should be helping out. I wonder if we'd all be so happy with the Irish Navy pulling people out of the Med if we have to take them in here.

And was it a fact that Ireland's gene pool circa 2000 was in need of improvement?
Is a population of 4 million people insufficient to maintain a healthy gene pool?

We have a higher rate of genetic illnesses than the rest of Europe. The population size isn't the issue, rather the genetic diversity of that population.

Is a population of 60 million people, in Italy's case, insufficient?

Italy has seen large influxes of people from Africa in the past (that's why the southern Italians are darker skinned) as well as tribes from central Europe. They are far more genetically diverse than us.