Why were people from one of the richest, freest and most secular countries in the middle east trying to get to Europe?
What reports?
Why were people from one of the richest, freest and most secular countries in the middle east trying to get to Europe?That poor boy who drowned (along with most of his family) was making a very dangerous crossing from a safe country (Turkey) into the EU illegally. They were doing this because they knew they would never get a VISA and because once in the EU by any means, you are there forever.
What reports?There are reports that it was his father who drove the boat and he was questioned by authorities about that!
The main reason of course for the election results is unchecked immigration into italy which the mainstream parties throughout europe refuse to talk about or deal with honestly.
People who claim to have been in the boat when it overturned. Turkish police took him in for questioning.Why were people from one of the richest, freest and most secular countries in the middle east trying to get to Europe?
What reports?
Can you post a link please?People who claim to have been in the boat when it overturned. Turkish police took him in for questioning.
It's not exactly a secret or an item that wasn't covered in the media
Absolutely impossible to debate a subject like this with someone who takes it very personally and ignores anything that doesn't suit their agenda.I've gone into considerable detail and asked you specific questions, none of which you have even attempted to answer.
Ok, so I should illegally view content that's behind a pay-wall? No, just like I don't steal TV content and Movies through illegal downloads.
Total strawman argument. Who here, or anywhere, suggested that it was mostly Doctors and Engineers who arrived into Europe?
Okay, so pay someone else to deal with it but don't let the darkies into our back yard.
Yes, and the Dublin Protocols mean that those people should be returned to their post of first entry. The EU is trying to prevent that happening but individual EU countries, in this case Greece, Bulgaria, Croatia and Slovenia, are ignoring EU law.
There you go again with the ferries. We are talking about a tiny minority of people. They may be used as an excuse as a justification for the rise of far right parties but history shows us that they are good at picking on minorities.
People born in the EU, UK, USA, Australia and Canada make up around 90% of our immigrants. The rest of the world make up the balance. That includes China, India etc. Which of those places should we ban?
Can you back that up with anything?
You are saying exactly that!
That poor boy who drowned (along with most of his family) was making a very dangerous crossing from a safe country (Turkey) into the EU illegally. They were doing this because they knew they would never get a VISA and because once in the EU by any means, you are there forever.
There are reports that it was his father who drove the boat and he was questioned by authorities about that!
Okay, so I take it from that you can't/won't answer any specific questions.Absolutely impossible to debate a subject like this with someone who takes it very personally and ignores anything that doesn't suit their agenda.
But the problem is not going to be solved by letting people kill themselves trying to get in. Why not try and get rid of the reasons why so many people want to leave their homes and risk their children's lives in the first place? How about we talk about EU and western foreign policy? The role of Russia and China. The supply of weapons by our Governments to poor countries and countries run by dubious regimes. The restrictive trade policies of western world that keep developing countries down. The inadequacy and in some cases corruption of organistions like the UN and so called aid agencies. The implicit support of corrupt regimes by large western corporations. Child Labour. Sweat shops producing our goods as cheaply as possibly.
The core point in all of this is that populist and racist politicians across the EU are blaming a tiny minority of asylum seekers for broader social and economic problems. There is absolutely no basis for this in fact.
Do you really think that the main reason we are richer is that "their education systems and culture prevent them for the most part from being able to contribute significantly to building that material achievement".
Do you think that our protectionist economic policies, historical and current political and military interference in their countries and regions have nothing to do with it?
The Ottoman Empire kept the Middle East in the Middle ages up until the early 20th century. It is not anyone else's fault that their societies did not develop politically. Nor is it any outsiders fault that the people of the middle east were unable to make any political progress from the Arab Spring.
I work in a manufacturing environment and we always like getting guys from a farming background because we find that they generally have a good work ethic. Maybe your friends father just wasn't very good at his job.Yes I really think that.
While I don't think that there can be any evidence produced either way I do have an anecdote which I think supports my view. The father of a school friend was the HR manager in one of the first FDI factories in Ireland. The factory employed over a thousand people in a production environment. It was notorious for strikes. There were newspaper articles about future investment being endangered because of this. The HR manager had the opinion that Irish workers from a farming background were culturally unsuited to factory work. They had no culture of accepting direction from a boss. So I think it is reasonable to believe that culture has a huge role in economic progress.
That shows a complete ignorance of the history of the region. Did you know that the first independent Kingdom in Arabia as the Ottoman Empire declined was a moderate Hashimite one? They had a representative parliament and gave women the same sort of rights they had in Europe at the time. Their women went to school and college. The problem was that the Hashimites, who are descendants of the Profit Mohammed and had the strongest political, historic and cultural claim over the region, were also political and were interested in Pan-Arab Nationalism. That means they would not be easy to control. Therefore the extremist Wahhabi Tribe was armed and trained and supported in an incredibly bloody conquest of the region in which hundreds of thousands of people were killed and maimed. They were then put in charge by the British and kept in place by the Americans, plunging the region back into the Middle Ages. Now, tell me again how it's nothing to do with us and they have always been backward.Not "nothing" but very little. Although I believe that protectionism is wrong, it hinders their economies and ours.
The people of the Middle East are responsible for their own destiny, they are not children to be protected from their own choices. (as an aside neither are the Brits, and boy are they going to find out about that).
The Ottoman Empire kept the Middle East in the Middle ages up until the early 20th century. It is not anyone else's fault that their societies did not develop politically. Nor is it any outsiders fault that the people of the middle east were unable to make any political progress from the Arab Spring.
We could start by not trying to overthrow their democratically elected governments.The corollary of this is that if Middle Eastern & North African countries are not ready for 21st century liberal democracy at home, it is is entirely valid to have concerns about how large numbers of individuals from those countries might be integrated successfully into Western countries - an entirely different scenario to migrations between say Ireland - UK - Australia.
We could start by not trying to overthrow their democratically elected governments.
We could also try not starting wars in their countries.
We did it when they were colonies, we did it when they stopped being colonies and we haven't stopped since.
I agree that the populist parties are generally isolationist. My point is that it is nonsense to suggest that we in the West have not been instrumental in the creation of the current situation in the Middle East, Persia and North Africa.If anything, populist parties seem less keen on foreign misadventures than the alternatives...
I don't think the Western intervention in Syria can be laid at the door of populists? Though I think the Russian one could be, in the sense that Putin is a populist.
I could be wrong on this, but Western populist parties seem more keen on fortress Europe \ fortress America \ fortress Australia idea than going out into the world, whether for 'noble' or material motives. Maybe this comes across as them as being less 'caring' towards the rest of the world than mainstream parties, but I would also interpret it to mean, less likely to screw up another country. I can see a populist party cutting all foreign aid, for example.
If you want the West to 'stop' doing the things you have mentioned, vote Populist!
The reason that the Arab Spring failed is that the region is religious and conservative and so it was inevitable that the well organised and popular Islamist movements such as the Muslim Brotherhood won popular elections. We in the West don't want to accept political Islam and so did everything we could to undermine it, and in doing so the democratic will of the people.
The reason that the Arab Spring failed is that the region is religious and conservative and so it was inevitable that the well organised and popular Islamist movements such as the Muslim Brotherhood won popular elections. We in the West don't want to accept political Islam and so did everything we could to undermine it, and in doing so the democratic will of the people.
All the talk of austerity while we continued to borrow far more than we earned in order to sustain a lifestyle we couldn't really afford. Some knuckling down that was!Not entirely serious here... but that prompted a similar thought in me about the EU, the euro, austerity and the Irish and southern european economies. The democratic will of the people would be to have the option to devalue rather than knuckle down to the euro & austerity.
Read post #52Therefore by this you accept that the problems now mostly lie within the region itself, the failure of the Arab spring is not the fault of Europe. With regard to European colonialism that is over effectively a century ago. I think we are doing these countries a disservice by telling them that everything is the fault of colonialism and stopping them from looking at what is wrong internally in their own countries. After all China was colonized to an extent and Japan was destroyed in the second world war, yet these countries still went on to become the Asian tiger economies. So there is something different going on in middle east that is not got to do with colonial history and that's where they need to focus. Bill gates has said that it is a mistake for Europe to continue to take in economic migrants from Africa as it basically stops these people looking to change their own countries, their main focus now is how do I get to Europe
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?