Israel attacks aid ship

Purple said:
I think the issue for Israel is to maintain pressure on Hamas.
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I think thats their fundamental flaw/miscalculation, their dis-proportionate measures feed hatred and terrorism. You turn ordinary folk into militants. Read an article recently re Afghanistan and it was much the same point that ultimately theres a "hearts and minds" exercise needed - not a "kill 'em all" strategy.
 
That's like the British punishing all of Northern Irelands citizens because of the actions of Sinn Fein.

You reap what you sow but they don't seem to cop this. Right now they're sowing hatred.
 
Further to umop3!sdn's question about how far do you want to go back. The Children of Israel have been fighting the Philistines since the time of Moses.
 

Are you saying this is one of those justifiable reasons? Really?

As to Egypt, I keep saying I agree with your point, all I'm saying is that I can sympathise with Egypt. That's it. It isn't easy for them, yes they could grow a pair, but they don't have the full resources to full protect their border and they lost the EU support.

Betsy Og said:
I think thats their fundamental flaw/miscalculation, their dis-proportionate measures feed hatred and terrorism. You turn ordinary folk into militants.
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That's fair enough, but look at the media attention to Israel and Gaza. How widely reported has it been that Hamas continued to violate the cease fire by launching rockets into Israel? Not that widely reported if at all. How widely reported was it that Israel didn't respond to one of these provocations? Again, never. When they do, it's total media coverage, when they show restraint (which is the vast majority of the time), it's ignored.
 
I do not understand what all of his hoo-ha is about.

A bunch of people want to bring aid to people that need it but the people needing it are ruled by a terrorist organisation.

When those bunch of people charter ships and announce they are going to break through a security zone set up to stop terrorists getting weapons the Israeli government offers those people that they can dock in an Israeli port and the goods (after establishing that there are no weapons in it) will be transferred to the intended destination.

Five out of 6 ships take up that offer, just one ship of hardliners decline to do so, despite that it would serve the aid goal (bringing aid).

As it does not serve the political goal of that bunch of people that one ship declines. In fact for me they became Hamas Navy at that moment.

Israel than takes action as the Hamas navy does ignore the order and tries to board the ships where they are attacked with knives, metal bars, possible guns and thrown overboard. In fact they snatched a gun from the IDF and started firing at other IDF members. Clearly not peace loving.

If these people had nothing to hide, why not allow the boarding, towing into the Israeli port where the aid would have send on. Goal archived, aid delivered and political point made. But instead these people who proclaim there are peace-loving attack other people.

In in the middle of it, Turkey. These jokers want to join the EU?

Look at the videos they clearly show how violence was used by members of the Hamas navy and that the IDF only used force once they came under attack. I’m sorry but if you hit me with a metal bar, you bet I’m going to take action against you. What would have happened if the IDF would not have responded and allowed the Hamas navy to beat their soldier to death or take them hostage?

These people are terrorist supporters! They should be jailed and not given the heroes status that some media are giving them. They clearly used violence and I suspect that they clearly hoped that Israel would stop them so that they and their terrorist friends can try to gain political capital out of this.

If they really were only concerned about the aid than they would have accepted the Israeli offer of transporting the aid to Gaza. But that clearly was not the goal.

I’m sorry for the lives lost, but if you volunteer to become a member of Hamas Navy than you have to take the risk that you die or get injured, that’s the price you pay to become a terrorist.
 
Boarding or attacking a ship in international waters in an act of piracy / terrorism. The captain and crew of a vessel in such circumstances are entitled to take whatever measures they deem appropriate to protect their vessel and their lives.

In this case the Israelis are the pirates and terrorists and there can be no justification for their murderous actions.

If our government and diplomats had any liathróidí they'd summon the Israeli ambassador for a meeting and issue a strongly worded PE or expel him / her. I'll be very surprised if it happens or if the Brits, Obama or the EU do anything either.
 
 
DublinTexas.

If Israel were allowing enough aid into Gaza then people would not feel the need the deliver it directly to Gaza.

They're allowing in approx: 25% of what is actually needed.

Do you get it now?


Israel were invited to check the cargo at port of departure.
If the aid goes to an Israely port then there is no telling how long it will stay in a warehouse.

The UN needs to step in here.
 

The cargo from the 5 ships that agreed to the sensible solution is in Israel now, I’m sure we are going to hear if it reaches Gaza.

An invitation to check it at the port of departure is a joke, there are enough points during the route to add weapons to the cargo. The Turkish government claimed they inspected and still people had weapons. So much to the theory of inspection at departure.

Niallers said:
The UN needs to step in here.
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Thank you for making me laugh, the UN is about as useful as my local council when it comes to fix the pothole in the street. Making a yellow mark around it and fix it in possible 2013.

mathepac said:
Boarding or attacking a ship in international waters in an act of piracy / terrorism. The captain and crew of a vessel in such circumstances are entitled to take whatever measures they deem appropriate to protect their vessel and their lives.
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The vessel in question was not in international waters (they begin 200 nautical miles of the cost).

The vessel was in the Exclusive Economic Zone and hence the Israel has the right to inspection of the vessel.

What do you think would our government do if a vessel does not agree to inspection in our Exclusive Economic Zone? In fact it’s a criminal offence not to co-operate with a marine office who wants to inspect the vessel.
 

Maybe if you got your facts straight, then you might realise what the hoo-ha is about.

So much rubbish in your posts that I am not even going to begin going through them.
 
Jaysis. Bill O'Reilly would be embarrassed posting that!
 
DublinTexas said:
What do you think would our government do if a vessel does not agree to inspection in our Exclusive Economic Zone? In fact it’s a criminal offence not to co-operate with a marine office who wants to inspect the vessel.
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Couple of problems with the EEZ in this case. First it only protects a state's rights over natural resources, fishing, pollution control etc. It still allows for the free passage of ships through and inside. The next problem is that in some areas it is very complicated, the Med particular due to the amount of nations that have coastlines there. Next is the point that it was Gaza territory, there is a question over the legality of Israel commanding Gaza's coastline in the first place.

But the biggest drawback is that the EEZ is a UN agreement, so it only exists, is recognised and enforceable in those states that signed and ratified the agreement. Israel didn't. Therefore there is no EEZ recognised for Israel.

Your assertion that it is right to assume the ships were "hamas" is nonsense. There is no doubt that this was a protest over any kind of aid mission, Israel knew that, Turkey, Ireland and all those involved knew that. Otherwise why were there so many parliamentarians and journalists onboard? They expected trouble, the were to put up some resistance, get arrested, then some would refuse deportation and get their day in court.

There was no basis to assume and work on the view that this was a terrorist action.

Like all those hoping for media coverage of a protest, I'm also sure that they hoped Israel would be a bit rough in their handling too, good for the cameras. But that still doesn't justify the action. It could have been handled differently, but Israel decided to drop its commandos onto the ship, what did they expect to happen? Of course people would resist.

The difference is whether you consider sling shots and poles to be the weapons of terrorists (though I suppose if you take in the story of David, maybe sling shots are).

There are numerous journalists on board and I'm sure hours of footage of what happened and yet the only footage released is from Israel. All those on board are still in a communications blackout. What are the odds we'll never get to see that footage? I mean, if that backs up what Israel say happened, where's the problem? Or, as is suggested, will that footage show the ship's passengers raising the white flag once boarded and the Israel acting in aggression first?

The legality of what Israel did is a mess. Unfortunately the only means of legal defence for Israel is one based upon UN law and standards, however Israel can't cherrypick which bits of UN law it uses to support its arguments, in order to use that, then it has to recognise the other bits of UN law and statements that question the whole legality of what is happening with the blockade of Gaza.
 
Sunny said:
Maybe if you got your facts straight, then you might realise what the hoo-ha is about.

So much rubbish in your posts that I am not even going to begin going through them.
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I don’t know what sources you are using, but I looked at several different media outlets and the overall story is the same.

5 out of 6 ships took the Israeli offer, one ship refused.

Israel tells that ship that it wants to inspect it, the ship refuses.

Israel sends it IDF to the ship.

IDF staff is attacked with metal bars, knives, other objects and at least 2 guns against the order of the ships master (who can be heard to tell people to stop resisting).

I suggest you watch the video of the IDF so that you can see for yourself what was going on.

So you cannot dispute that facts can you?

You sure can call my conclusion about these terrorists rubbish, that is you right, but the facts are clear.
 
Also why did the commondos board at 2am in the morning under the cover of darkness without prior warning that they were boarding to inspect the ship?

It was a military operation against a civillian ship flying under a soverign nations flag in international waters.
 

How do you know what the facts are considering one side has not been allowed to communicate its version of events because the Israeli censor has stopped them. Only the IDF pictures and version of events has been released.

There is no doubt that the soldiers met resistance. The question remains what were the soldiers doing there in the first place. Attacking a professional commando unit with iron bars, sling shots, sticks or even knives does not suggest that the people on the ship were planning for war. If they had been Hamas terrorists as you claim, I am sure they would have been able to source some better weapons than that.
 
Latrade said:
But the biggest drawback is that the EEZ is a UN agreement, so it only exists, is recognised and enforceable in those states that signed and ratified the agreement. Israel didn't. Therefore there is no EEZ recognised for Israel.
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Thank you Latrade, I than stand corrected in my interpretation of the EEZ for Israel, I was under the impression that a cost nation has the right to inspect vessels in the EEZ where needed.


And they could have archived that in the moment the IDF dropped on board. The people could have had just that, struggled a little, get arrested and then get their day in court.

But that is not what happened, the people (against the wishes of the ships master) used violence including guns, a far stance away from some resistance.

Latrade said:
The difference is whether you consider sling shots and poles to be the weapons of terrorists (though I suppose if you take in the story of David, maybe sling shots are).
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I call guns weapons and that is what was found on board and used against the IDF.


I’m sure more pictures are going to come out and will show all angels, but the existing video is quite clear to me.


Well, Israel is not the only country that is cherry picking UN laws, the US, the UK, North Korea and other nations are doing that all the time. I mean the whole Iraq war is based on US/UK cherry picking resolutions and lying to get what they wanted.
 
Sunny said:
Again, even Israel are not claiming this. They are saying that their soldiers had their own handguns used against them.
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Israel says its soldiers boarded the lead ship in the early hours but were attacked with axes, knives, bars and at least two guns.
 
I don't claim anyone is an angel in this, in fact I've stated all along this was a protest rather than an actual aid visit (IMO).

You're right, all nations cherrypick the bits of UN agreements they comply with or ignore, the problem is you can't then go waving them about to justify the aggressive acts you've just taken. It's a bigger problem than just this incident, Israel's only defences are the recognition of the UN agreement on EEZ and following laws (which it didn't sign to) and that Israel is in a state of war/conflict with Gaza. If it is the latter, then that actually makes the blockade illegal rather than legitimate under the Geneva convention.

As to what happened on board, we have only been shown footage from the IDF and that's it. This contradicts the reports from people in communication with the ship and those who have managed to breach the communication blackout.

Israel's footage shows a commando dropping onto the ship and coming under attack. We have no idea of the timeline on that footage, was he the first, among the first or later on after things got out of hand?

Reports from witnesses claim to have evidence that the white flag was raised and then there was aggression from Israel and then people responded. Easiest way to clear all this up is for Israel to remove the blackout and release the footage and recordings of all those journalists on board.

A couple of hand guns among a couple of hundred civilians. Hardly the stuff of a planned act of violence, hardly showing confirmed links to Hamas.
 
DublinTexas said:
Israel says its soldiers boarded the lead ship in the early hours but were attacked with axes, knives, bars and at least two guns.
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“There was extreme violence from the moment that our forces reached the ship. It was premeditated and included weapons, iron bars, knives and at a certain stage firearms, weapons that were snatched from soldiers,” said Lieutenant-General Gabi Ashkenazi, the Israeli Chief of Staff

Again why were a elite commando unit sent in under the cover of darkness with paintguns? It doesn't add up. Why not go in during daylight after giving notice that you were boarding the ship?
 
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