Israel attacks aid ship

[csirl]

It would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious. Water allowed but not fruit juice? Tea and coffee allowed but not chocolate?

At least Israel allows some things through. Egypt, who's people live in Gaza, allows NOTHING through.

Huwaida Arraf, one of the organizers, said the six-ship flotilla began the journey toward Gaza on Sunday afternoon after two days of delays. She said they expected to reach Gaza, about 250 miles away, on Monday afternoon, and that two more ships expected to follow in "a second wave."
She said the flotilla was "fully prepared for the different scenarios" that might arise, and that organizers were hopeful that Israeli authorities would "do what's right" and not stop the convoy.
"We fully intend to go to Gaza regardless of any intimidation of threats of violence against us," she said. "They are going to have to forcefully stop us."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/30/pro-palestinian-aid-flotilla-sets-sail-for-gaza-st/


Above quote from one of the organisers. Seems to suggest that they were looking for confrontation. The phrase "fully prepared for the different scenarios" seems to back up the Israelis claim that they were armed.

 

[Bill Struth]

At least Israel allows some things through. Egypt, who's people live in Gaza, allows NOTHING through..

No one is denying that. But then again Egypt hasn't just murdered foreign citizens in international waters. No other country in the world would get away with it.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/30/pro-palestinian-aid-flotilla-sets-sail-for-gaza-st/


Above quote from one of the organisers. Seems to suggest that they were looking for confrontation. The phrase "fully prepared for the different scenarios" seems to back up the Israelis claim that they were armed.

Are you Mark Regev? That phrase could mean absolutely anything.

 

[Sunny]

At least Israel allows some things through. Egypt, who's people live in Gaza, allows NOTHING through.




http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/30/pro-palestinian-aid-flotilla-sets-sail-for-gaza-st/


Above quote from one of the organisers. Seems to suggest that they were looking for confrontation. The phrase "fully prepared for the different scenarios" seems to back up the Israelis claim that they were armed.

By all accounts, they had sticks, knives and unconfirmed reports that they had a couple of handguns. Hardly prepared for an assult by a professional commando unit in international waters.

I notice that the Israeli's casulties seems to getting bigger and more serious as the hours the go on..

I cannot think of one thing that allows Israel to defend it's actions on this one. It's citizens were not under threat. (Assuming it was all aid and there is no evidence to suggest it was anything but)

 

[dereko1969]

Above quote from one of the organisers. Seems to suggest that they were looking for confrontation. The phrase "fully prepared for the different scenarios" seems to back up the Israelis claim that they were armed.

Could also mean that they had bullet proof vests, white flags, UN flags - depending on how you view things, obviously to you it means weapons but it wouldn't be my first reading of it.

 

[Latrade]

The flottila was warned last week not to attempt to cross the blockade.
And they tried it anyway
Maybe they thought the IDF would do nothing. But they was always going to be a reaction.

The whole purpose of this was to get a reaction, of that there's little doubt. However, at worst the expectation would be that they would be stopped in Israel's waters (note that even though Israel doesn't control Gaza itself, it still controls the coast and airspace, which contradicts the Israeli statements regarding the legality of the blockade) and either deported or if they refused, detained.

Their hope was to then raise a lot of media attention to the issue. I don't feel anyone thought Israel would enter international waters, have commandos jump from a helicopter and start shooting people on a boat over some fruit juice and chocolate.

And I also think it's a bit disingenuos saying Israel lets some things through, it really is a very small amount of aid, including medical supplies (which get held up in processing and approval then have to be destroyed because they're past their use). Best estimates are that only 30% of aide gets through.

Egypt has its own problems, in particular the tunnels that it fails to control. But then i feel sorry for Egypt, it entered into the blockade thinking the EU would have troops as support, however, when Hamas came to power it "strongly disagreed" with the EU presence, i.e. get out before we start picking you off. So Egypt was left to defend itself thoroughly on the understanding that if Hamas operates or co-ordinates from Egypt, that makes Egypt a legitimate target. So it's getting threats from the US/Israel, but has no support from anyone else.

So again, it's a mess, there are serious questions regarding the legality of the blockade, there are questions as to the motivations of those in the boats. However, none of that justifies what happened this morning in any context.

 

[csirl]

Egypt has its own problems, in particular the tunnels that it fails to control. But then i feel sorry for Egypt, it entered into the blockade thinking the EU would have troops as support, however, when Hamas came to power it "strongly disagreed" with the EU presence, i.e. get out before we start picking you off. So Egypt was left to defend itself thoroughly on the understanding that if Hamas operates or co-ordinates from Egypt, that makes Egypt a legitimate target. So it's getting threats from the US/Israel, but has no support from anyone else.

There is no reason for Egypt to have a blockade. It should never have abandoned its own citizens. There should be free movement around all of Egypt and equal rights for all Egyptians including those living in Gaza. This problem is entirely caused by Egypt refusal to enforce law and order in its own country. They have no political desire to take on Hamas or any of the other terrorists. They prefer to let their people live in rotten conditions in Gaza.

 

[Sunny]

The whole purpose of this was to get a reaction, of that there's little doubt. However, at worst the expectation would be that they would be stopped in Israel's waters (note that even though Israel doesn't control Gaza itself, it still controls the coast and airspace, which contradicts the Israeli statements regarding the legality of the blockade) and either deported or if they refused, detained.

Their hope was to then raise a lot of media attention to the issue. I don't feel anyone thought Israel would enter international waters, have commandos jump from a helicopter and start shooting people on a boat over some fruit juice and chocolate.

And I also think it's a bit disingenuos saying Israel lets some things through, it really is a very small amount of aid, including medical supplies (which get held up in processing and approval then have to be destroyed because they're past their use). Best estimates are that only 30% of aide gets through.

Egypt has its own problems, in particular the tunnels that it fails to control. But then i feel sorry for Egypt, it entered into the blockade thinking the EU would have troops as support, however, when Hamas came to power it "strongly disagreed" with the EU presence, i.e. get out before we start picking you off. So Egypt was left to defend itself thoroughly on the understanding that if Hamas operates or co-ordinates from Egypt, that makes Egypt a legitimate target. So it's getting threats from the US/Israel, but has no support from anyone else.

So again, it's a mess, there are serious questions regarding the legality of the blockade, there are questions as to the motivations of those in the boats. However, none of that justifies what happened this morning in any context.

Well put.

 

[UFC]

My criticism of Israel is that they never apologise for their screw-ups. They never come out and say "Yes, our soldiers panicked and completely over-reacted and now people are dead who shouldn't be." The same holds true when their soldiers shoot civilians at checkpoints (even when they are children on their way to school). Because of this there is a shadow cast over all of their actions.

I think that's because they haven't panicked. I think they genuinely believe they are entitled to do whatever they want.

 

[Latrade]

There is no reason for Egypt to have a blockade. It should never have abandoned its own citizens. There should be free movement around all of Egypt and equal rights for all Egyptians including those living in Gaza. This problem is entirely caused by Egypt refusal to enforce law and order in its own country. They have no political desire to take on Hamas or any of the other terrorists. They prefer to let their people live in rotten conditions in Gaza.

Yes I agree regarding Egypt, but like Israel I have sympathy with the impossibility of what Egypt has to deal with. If it opens up the crossing to Gaza it legitimises Hamas. First, that is contrary to Egypt's policy as it doesn't recognise or want to deal with Hamas, second, Hamas operating out of Egypt and using its borders is bad news for Egypt. Catch 22.

But still, the fact that Egypt isn't playing fair and all the ills imposed on Israel to date and all the threats to Israel doesn't justify Israel's actions this morning.

 

[Purple]

By all accounts, they had sticks, knives and unconfirmed reports that they had a couple of handguns. Hardly prepared for an assult by a professional commando unit in international waters.

If someone came at me with a knife and I had an assault rifle I'd shoot them.

The full facts have not emerged yet, and they may never emerge. Israel is not like other countries; it is under constant threat from many of its neighbours and if it lets its guard down it will be attacked. The flotilla knew that they were not going to be let through to Gaza without being boarded so the real question is what were the sequence of events when they were. If the IDF landed on the ship and just started shooting then they are completely in the wrong. If they landed and were attacked (even if the attackers just had sticks and knives) then they were justified in opening fire.

Israel is in an impossible position, they are being forced to police an Egyptian problem because the Egyptians can do nothing and remain untouched by much of the Western Media/ Western Governments. If Israel does nothing it gets bombarded by Rockets (that are smuggles in through tunnels from Egypt or on ships who claim to be carrying aid.

 

[Purple]

I think that's because they haven't panicked. I think they genuinely believe they are entitled to do whatever they want.

I believe they think they are required to do whatever they deem necessary to stop attacks against their country. Not an unreasonable standpoint. If Hamas was not attacking Israel there would be no blockade.

 

[Latrade]

If someone came at me with a knife and I had an assault rifle I'd shoot them....

If the IDF landed on the ship and just started shooting then they are completely in the wrong. If they landed and were attacked (even if the attackers just had sticks and knives) then they were justified in opening fire.

Purple, we've agreed on Israel before and I share the view that Israel is justifiably twitchy in its responses. However, I just can't support that view in this event. Even allowing for hype and playing with the truth, what do we know?

1. The ships were in international waters, Israel has no say in what they do while there.

2. Israel sent out commandos in a helicopter who then landed, fully armed onto the ships.

3. "something" happened and non-military citizens of other soveriegn countries (remember Turkey is an ally of Israel) were shot and killed.

You say if some came at me with sticks and knives, you'd shoot. Well if I were in international waters and commandos dropped onto my ship fully armed, I'd defend myself and my colleagues. Those on the boat were perfectly in their rights to react and defend themselves against that action. It doesn't matter if the ones coming aboard are Pirates or Military, they were in the wrong and the passengers had every right to defend against such an act of aggression.

 

[Sunny]

If someone came at me with a knife and I had an assault rifle I'd shoot them.

So next time a somali pirate boards a ship in international waters and the ship tries to defend itself , the pirate is justified in shooting people?

Not really comparing the two but it was in international waters. The ship was flying under a Turkish flag. Israel had no right to board the ship with a commando unit. It's citizens were not going to be harmed by sticks or knives so unless Israel finds rockets or something in the cargo, it was a completely unjustifed act of murder.

 

[z107]

I believe they think they are required to do whatever they deem necessary to stop attacks against their country. Not an unreasonable standpoint. If Hamas was not attacking Israel there would be no blockade.

How far back do you want to go?
Recognition of people's republic of China by Egypt?
The Suez Crises?
The Six day war?
Yom Kippur War?

There's a huge amount of stuff going on, that goes back years. A very tangled web indeed.

 

[Purple]

How far back do you want to go?
Recognition of people's republic of China by Egypt?
The Suez Crises?
The Six day war?
Yom Kippur War?

There's a huge amount of stuff going on, that goes back years. A very tangled web indeed.

I agree; there's no clear right and wrong in the broader historical context. It veries depending on where you start from.

 

[Purple]

Latrade, Sunny; broadly speaking I agree.

 

[Betsy Og]

At an admittedly simplistic level, if you take the view that the people in the boats were just courting controversy (sounds a bit conspiracy theory to me) then why not let them through and defeat their aims??

If, as seems more likely, it was genuine aid being delivered then Israel's action is basically murder inflicted to ensure wider misery. This defending themselves stuff seems daft to me - I start waving tricolours on the Shankill, a mob approaches me so I gun them down ..... sure I was only defending myself........

Isnt it universally true that you cannot suppress an entire nation indefinitely. Look at Afghanistan, Ireland, India etc. etc. If you make every citizen your enemy then how can you have peace?? Wouldnt Israel be better moving away from punishing peoples and adopting a more surgical approach (as they have shown are capable of doing).

Would it really hurt Israel or Egypt if people in Gaza had enough to eat??, or medical care, schools, infrastructure etc. I know this sounds like a beauty pagent speech but the current position does seems to defy basic logic and humanity.

 

[Purple]

I think the issue for Israel is to maintain pressure on Hamas. If the quality of day to day life is improved under Hamas they will portray it as a victory for their terror campaign. I'm not saying I agree with them, or even if they are correct that it justifies it, but I think it is their rationale. I really don't understand why the Egyptians don't just put proper security screening in place and re-open the boarder.

In the long run poverty and oppression breed hatred and violence and whatever the historical rights and wrongs of it, it is Israel that the ire of the people of Gaza is being directed against. Admittedly the Israelis did try to help them a few years ago but how that that evil man Arafat is dead (the man who stole hundreds of millions of international aid from his own people) there might be a change to build a new peace.

Egypt and Jordan are on side and Syria, despite the rhetoric, is not interested in attacking Israel so from a national perspective it’s only Iran that’s a problem. There will always be huge amounts of Arab money for terrorist groups (very little for schools and hospitals though) but the big players from decades passed are off the pitch at this stage. The USA has given billions of dollars to the Palestinians over the last 15 years (hitting the high water mark during the last Bush presidency), mostly directed through the world bank and the UN. Israel has also spent a fortune giving them aid (and then even more blowing it up!). How much have their oil rich Arab neighbours given?

 

[csirl]

1. The ships were in international waters, Israel has no say in what they do while there.

There are many circumstances in which the security forces of any nation can seize and take control of any ship flying under any flag in international waters. Even if those international waters are 1,000s miles away from their terroritories. The Proliferation Security Initiative is one I can think off right now and is probably not the one used in this instance (using it as an example), but their are a wide range of these initiatives, many of which are controlled by UN agreements, in existance.

 

[csirl]

Yes I agree regarding Egypt, but like Israel I have sympathy with the impossibility of what Egypt has to deal with. If it opens up the crossing to Gaza it legitimises Hamas. First, that is contrary to Egypt's policy as it doesn't recognise or want to deal with Hamas, second, Hamas operating out of Egypt and using its borders is bad news for Egypt. Catch 22.

I dont understand how Egypt would be legitimising Hamas? Surely Egypt taking control of its own national territory from Hamas would be deligitimising Hamas rule in Gaza?