Is it time for wage increases?

[TheBigShort]

Then consumer prices should fall, which means people can buy more so the less need to raise wages.

The economy, prices, wages, etc dont work in a vacuum. If oil price falls, it signals less activity in the economy. Less activity signals rising unemployment and downward pressure on wages.
On the otherhand, economies that are stuttering to grow, if wages increase this may lead to increased consumption, employment etc.

Look, nothing is a given in any economic cycle. But the topic, from the opening post, was to address the ECB dilemma of targeting 2% inflation. They chose a path of QE, which has inflated asset prices. They have since called, as have many others, the need for wage increases.
That is now occuring, and economic growth with it.

I'm sure the EU has an army of economists and as I am not an economist myself I wouldn't even try. I'm not against wage increases per se, but I don't see increasing wages as a magic bullet either.

No-one declared it as a magic bullet. It is a tool. At the time this topic started, economic growth across the eurozone was subdued. Heading for a deflationary trap.
There is a time for wage increases, that can spur on economic growth. That time is now

 

[Firefly]

No-one declared it as a magic bullet.

But it seems impossible to implement in an equitable way though. As a declared capitalist yourself , would you not agree that the fairest and most equitable way to higher wages is via the market economy?

if you are homeless and hungry or a bankrupt property developer, you are going to need a handout.

We're veering off topic here, but yes, I agree that in times of trouble having a safety net for people is a fantastic option for those in a rich country like ours. Sadly though, it gets abused..

 

[TheBigShort]

But it seems impossible to implement in an equitable way though. As a declared capitalist yourself , would you not agree that the fairest and most equitable way to higher wages is via the market economy?

For sure. But we need to establish a market economy in the first instance. We live in a centralised banking economy.
These guys at the ECB were put in charge of setting interest rates to control inflation. Now they are trying to set inflation to control interest rates. It is sad. World turned upside down economics.

The 'market' economy was destroyed virtue of the laissez faire approach to the financial sector. The one sector that should never been allowed to do what it did.
All that is happening now, is to try put humpty dumpty back together again.
Increasing wages, in my opinion, is the quickest and fairest way to do that.

 

[RETIRED2017]

I agree. But what it has to do with this topic I'm not sure.

In any case, this topic which started in Sept 2016 is somewhat outdated.

Wage increases are being felt across the Irish economy, and also in other parts of the eurozone. Notably Germany.
Inflation is on its way, as desired by ECB (not me!) Cheer Leader

What will happen to the QE €trns however? God only knows!

Wage Increases will work out Well For The ALright there Jack = people with no Mortgage or a small mortgage people near the top of there pay scale and people on high Incomes people in protected Employment and so forth and the people with the bank of mam and Dad


What about the people who do not have the bank of Mom and Dad

With Inflation the first thing to get hit is Mortgage rates what good is 4.3% of 9 euro an hour to them ,

Someone on 30 euro an hour getting 4.3 has a better chance of working out better in Ireland

I can see how I Am Alright there jack likes to see wage Increases ,

 

[TheBigShort]

Wage Increases will work out Well For The ALright there Jack = people with no Mortgage or a small mortgage people near the top of there pay scale and people on high Incomes people in protected Employment and so forth and the people with the bank of mam and Dad


What about the people who do not have the bank of Mom and Dad

With Inflation the first thing to get hit is Mortgage rates what good is 4.3% of 9 euro an hour to them ,

Someone on 30 euro an hour getting 4.3 has a better chance of working out better in Ireland

I can see how I Am Alright there jack likes to see wage Increases ,

The only rational I can see in the above is that you are opposed to wages at all!
Otherwise it makes no sense to me - dont increase wages because some people have smaller mortgages than others ?!?!

 

[RETIRED2017]

The only rational I can see in the above is that you are opposed to wages at all!
Otherwise it makes no sense to me - dont increase wages because some people have smaller mortgages than others ?!?!

You know well that is not what i am say :time and time again you see people using the people on low wages to feather there own nest and getting away with it,

 

[TheBigShort]

You know well that is not what i am say :time and time again you see people using the people on low wages to feather there own nest and getting away with it,

Yeh, typically by preying on their extra income by offer loans.
However, by offering wage increases over and above the inflation rate working people will have more purchasing power.
The trick of the last 30-40 yrs was to offer moderate wage increases in return for tax 'reform' and low interest rates. Allowing the blood-suckers to peddle their perpetual debt model on working people.
It has its benefits, to a point. But when the reality of continuously borrowing in order to sustain moderate lifestyles becomes the norm, it is time for a reality check.

Increasing wages at this point will drive economies forward. Smash bloated stock markets and crucify the blood-suckers who gain on the perpetual debt system.

In bad times they tell workers, cant afford to pay.
In good times they tell workers, cant afford to pay in case it brings back the bad times.

We live in centralised banking economy, driven by corporate agenda and facilitated by subservient governance.

 

[RETIRED2017]

Yeh,

We live in centralised banking economy, driven by corporate agenda and facilitated by subservient governance.

Yeh, typically by preying on their extra income by offer loans.
However, by offering wage increases over and above the inflation rate working people will have more purchasing power.
The trick of the last 30-40 yrs was to offer moderate wage increases in return for tax 'reform' and low interest rates. Allowing the blood-suckers to peddle their perpetual debt model on working people.
It has its benefits, to a point. But when the reality of continuously borrowing in order to sustain moderate lifestyles becomes the norm, it is time for a reality check.

Increasing wages at this point will drive economies forward. Smash bloated stock markets and crucify the blood-suckers who gain on the perpetual debt system.

In bad times they tell workers, cant afford to pay.
In good times they tell workers, cant afford to pay in case it brings back the bad times.

We live in centralised banking economy, driven by corporate agenda and facilitated by subservient governance.

I am not going to fall for that the biggest blood-suckers are the leeches With Bristles who feather there own nest off the backs of Irish working people ,
Great to see Labour at 4% pity the got the seventh seat ,

 

[TheBigShort]

I am not going to fall for that the biggest blood-suckers are the leeches With Bristles who feather there own nest off the backs of Irish working people ,

I have to call this out at some point.

Everytime I try to get to, what I believe to be, the heart of the dysfunction in our monetary system there seems to be, involuntary reflex to talk about bodily hair, notably beards!
You are not the only one in fairness. Perhaps you, or others prone to this fetish could open a thread on 'Beards and the Economic Consequences'?
Until then, perhaps you could stay on topic.

Why do you think the Fed Reserve, ECB, numerous economists, business people, and numerous economic commentators are advocating for wages to increase?
Dont take my word for it, it takes about 5mins to read through the headlines of the links ive attached.

After that, unless you have something of substance to add, then I might join you in the 'Beards...' thread.

 

[RETIRED2017]

I have to call this out at some point.

Everytime I try to get to, what I believe to be, the heart of the dysfunction in our monetary system there seems to be, involuntary reflex to talk about bodily hair, notably beards!
You are not the only one in fairness. Perhaps you, or others prone to this fetish could open a thread on 'Beards and the Economic Consequences'?
Until then, perhaps you could stay on topic.

Why do you think the Fed Reserve, ECB, numerous economists, business people, and numerous economic commentators are advocating for wages to increase?
Dont take my word for it, it takes about 5mins to read through the headlines of the links ive attached.

After that, unless you have something of substance to add, then I might join you in the 'Beards...' thread.

Now Now TheBigShort The others think they are left wing Socialist because the have a Beard

Beards are used to hiding there true colors you can see by the Behavior of Most Posters On Hear How It Actually Works ,You need to look at the Company the keep to see there true colors,

I know they are Right Wing Bottom Feeders Who Wear A Beard so they don't get noticed,

 

[TheBigShort]

Now Now TheBigShort The others think they are left wing Socialist because the have a Beard

I know they are Right Wing Bottom Feeders Who Wear A Beard so they don't get noticed,

Mario Draghi "We need higher wages"
Janet Yellen "Wage pressure is desirable"
David McWilliams, NY Times...etc...

Not a five o'clock shadow amongst them!

 

[TheBigShort]

In the context of general economic theory, wage increases are inflationary. Central banks around the world are trying to stoke inflation.

The quickest and fairest way to stoke inflation into developed economies is through increased wages.

I blamed myself for poor OP leading to rabbit holes about LUAS drivers and public sector workers.
But on reflection, it is clear from the OP that I was not talking about exclusively about the Irish economy.

 

[RETIRED2017]

I blamed myself for poor OP leading to rabbit holes about LUAS drivers and public sector workers.
But on reflection, it is clear from the OP that I was not talking about exclusively about the Irish economy.

Just for the record in case you are pigeonholing me in with posters on hear who give public servants a hard time DON'T

I have a very high regard for public servants I believe many of the gains in the private sector Employment can be traced back to gains made by public servants first

If fact public servants were the first to Notice the Boys With The beards Were Right Wing Bottom Feeders When Push Came to Shove,

It was the public servants who Sorted out the Labour Party and gave it a good trimming in the last election and I thank them for doing so ,

As we found out Labour eat out of the same pocket as FF/FG and still do,

 

[TheBigShort]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/uk-wages-economy-inflation-pay-rise-malaise-a7662631.html

I missed out on this one from April 2017.

"What if wage increases for workers did not always need to follow productivity growth, but could precede it, perhaps even cause it? What if the egg came before the chicken? Some fascinating research posted on the Bank of England’s Bank Underground blog by Alex Tuckett last week provides some evidence that wage-led productivity growth may indeed be a possibility."

Who would have thought that?

 

[RETIRED2017]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/uk-wages-economy-inflation-pay-rise-malaise-a7662631.html

I missed out on this one from April 2017.

"What if wage increases for workers did not always need to follow productivity growth, but could precede it, perhaps even cause it? What if the egg came before the chicken? Some fascinating research posted on the Bank of England’s Bank Underground blog by Alex Tuckett last week provides some evidence that wage-led productivity growth may indeed be a possibility."

Who would have thought that?

That rabbit almost smothered waiting for you to pull it out of the bag
Do Bunnies shed whiskers,

 

[Purple]

Allowing the blood-suckers to peddle their perpetual debt model on working people.

You really don't like banks or bankers, do you?

It has its benefits, to a point. But when the reality of continuously borrowing in order to sustain moderate lifestyles becomes the norm, it is time for a reality check.

That model has been in place since the 1950's.

Increasing wages at this point will drive economies forward. Smash bloated stock markets and crucify the blood-suckers who gain on the perpetual debt system.

Increases in wages may be a good thing as the link between labour and productivity/profit diminishes in a more automated world where Capital is king.

In bad times they tell workers, cant afford to pay.

In good times they tell workers, cant afford to pay in case it brings back the bad times.

True.

We live in centralised banking economy, driven by corporate agenda and facilitated by subservient governance.

We live in a globalised world with a globalised economy where capital can move far more freely than labour. Banking just a (big) cog in the machine. The up side is a far more even global distribution of wealth as billions have moved out of absolute poverty over the last 20-30 years. That has been done at the expense of the top billion "normal" people; the people who don't control the big capital.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next 20 to 30 years as wage levels start to equalise between the top billion and the next 4 billion and the link between labour and wealth is re-established. Until then vast amounts of wealth will be generated and concentrated among the tiny elite who control the large chunks of the global economy. The same thing happened in the USA during and after the great depression.

The thing about elites is that they have kids and their kids have kids and they all pay inheritance taxes and their wealth gets diluted and dissipates. Intergenerational wealth does last for some but not for most.


The big gap isn’t between the guy who can spend a €250,000 on a car and the guy who can only spend €1000. The big gap is between the guy who can only afford to spend €1000 on a car and the guy who has to watch his family starve to death. To the last guy we are all super rich.

 

[Purple]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/uk-wages-economy-inflation-pay-rise-malaise-a7662631.html

I missed out on this one from April 2017.

"What if wage increases for workers did not always need to follow productivity growth, but could precede it, perhaps even cause it? What if the egg came before the chicken? Some fascinating research posted on the Bank of England’s Bank Underground blog by Alex Tuckett last week provides some evidence that wage-led productivity growth may indeed be a possibility."

Who would have thought that?

Lots of may's and might's in there.

 

[TheBigShort]

You really don't like banks or bankers, do you?

Only those who engage in, or collude in, unethical and/or corrupt manipulative practices for the purposes of self-gain that otherwise would not have occurred.
All other banks and bankers are perfectly fine.

That model has been in place since the 1950's.

And even before that.
But inherent in the credit expansion model was underlying concept of repaying debt before further credit was afforded.
Not such an issue for governments and corporations not to repay, as long as they were prudent with spending and investment.
But once the concept of perpetual debt was afforded to citizens...circa 1970's, then it was bound to lead to trouble.

Increases in wages may be a good thing as the link between labour and productivity/profit diminishes in a more automated world where Capital is king.

This is actually touches on the basis of future distribution of wealth. Concepts such as living wage, basic income, an end to the structure of employee/employer relationship replaced instead by ownership of productivity for the producer at individual level.

The up side is a far more even global distribution of wealth as billions have moved out of absolute poverty over the last 20-30 years

Certainly there has been plenty of upside. But just because levels of famine and starvation have been reduced is no cause for celebration. There is enough wealth to eradicate famine and hunger altogether. Bob Geldolf, and many others before , recognised it 30yrs ago.
The fact that my son comes home from school with a Trocaire box each year - 40yrs since I did, indicates to me that the fundamental causes of poverty are still highly prevalent in the world.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next 20 to 30 years as wage levels start to equalise between the top billion and the next 4 billion and the link between labour and wealth is re-established.
Until then vast amounts of wealth will be generated and concentrated among the tiny elite who control the large chunks of the global economy. The same thing happened in the USA during and after the great depression.

I disagree, wealth is created and generated by everybody.
Wealth however is controlled by an elite. Big difference.

The thing about elites is that they have kids and their kids have kids and they all pay inheritance taxes and their wealth gets diluted and dissipates. Intergenerational wealth does last for some but not for most.

I disagree, wealth tends to attract more wealth. It's how economies grow. It's so much that personal wealth dissipates, more a case that wealthy people tend to congregate.

The big gap isn’t between the guy who can spend a €250,000 on a car and the guy who can only spend €1000. The big gap is between the guy who can only afford to spend €1000 on a car and the guy who has to watch his family starve to death. To the last guy we are all super rich.

Agreed.

 

[TheBigShort]

Lots of may's and might's in there.

Of course, all theoretical. Hence the topic title "Is it.... ?"

I would argue it is, as would others.

 

[RETIRED2017]

The only rational I can see in the above is that you are opposed to wages at all!
Otherwise it makes no sense to me - dont increase wages because some people have smaller mortgages than others ?!?!

The government small Mortgage will cost a tidy sum to service with higher Interest rates could mean some people may have to fore go a wage increase in the not so distance future because there Employer will have to service the debt before wage increase

We are already seeing Irish people leaving Ireland because of the catch 22 situation if we pay them higher wages it means they and others will have to pay more tax Irish people do not want to pay more tax Wages in lots of sectors are being driven down so no extra tax coming in,

Expect lots of unrest in Ireland once higher Inflation and interest rates kick in,

Wage increases followed by highe r interest rates may affect the Irish economy and Government more than you Think,