Is Ireland out of touch regarding taxation / benefits?

faketales

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I don't have in-depth knowledge of how government program and benefits work in different countries but talking with friends living elsewhere there seems to be a common theme that things are done a bit different in Ireland.

One Big Taxation Pot
We seem to operate a centralised tax pot where money is pooled and then divide up as per (political) needs. Taxes that may appear to have a defined use behind the scenes really don't. Public sector pension levies don't fund investment for public pension, PRSI doesn't get invested and fund pensions etc. This makes it difficult to defend any tax. Doesn't USC just go to general tax pot? While I understand the need for flexibility failure to ring fence monies has impacts on funding of less urgent needs. I know this is not how the Canadian Pension Plan works and even public sector Canadian pensions. It seems a reckless approach.

Benefits Linked to "taxes" Paid
Similarly we tent to take a one size fits all approach to benefits. We also don't generally cap what you pay in. For example if PRSI was really an insurance there would be a cap on what you pay in because what you can get out is definitely capped. I guess this goes back to the above point of one tax pot. Open to correction but the full non contributory pension is the same as the full contributory. Similarly JSA and JSB were the same. That is now changed or will do soon. A very welcome move. Covid really shone a light on how pool benefits are for people who lose there jobs after paying taxes all their lives. Maternity Benefits are not linked to what you have paid and when totalled are some of the worst in Europe, I think we get away with it due to it not impacting people in the public sector and generally MNC.

Benchmarked Benefits / Tax changes
While government does need to have the ability to control tax or benefit rates elsewhere in the world it is not uncommon for there to be formulas in place that increase tax bands or benefits annually based off inflation. In Ireland any changes are political gifts to distribute on budget day where as a failure to increase tax bands is really a tax increase.

Interesting to hear thoughts on the above. Are we out of touch? It seems that pelicans favour direct control of a big tax pot as opposed to setting up systems the are funded independently and where more certainty is available.

Not linking benefits to what is paid in probable impacts on the middle class the most and gives a feeling that we get very little for what we pay in. A final point and some what separate but also probable impacting the middle class the most.

Tax Free Investing
Investing appears to be a dirty word in Ireland and I'm not going to rant on about deemed disposal, but tax free investment allowances are common elsewhere. I mean people on this island have them. Why have they never been on the agenda here? Could be used to save for a deposit or kids college costs. Would that really be unacceptable politically?
 
"One Big Taxation Pot
We seem to operate a centralised tax pot where money is pooled and then divide up as per (political) needs. Taxes that may appear to have a defined use behind the scenes really don't. Public sector pension levies don't fund investment for public pension, PRSI doesn't get invested and fund pensions etc. This makes it difficult to defend any tax. Doesn't USC just go to general tax pot? While I understand the need for flexibility failure to ring fence monies has impacts on funding of less urgent needs. I know this is not how the Canadian Pension Plan works and even public sector Canadian pensions. It seems a reckless approach."

PRSI is separate from tax, and goes into the Social Insurance Fund (SIF). The SIF is used to finance social insurance benefits.

Social assistance benefits are paid for by general taxes. Yes, you are correct, PRSI is not invested.
 
Benefits Linked to "taxes" Paid
Similarly we tent to take a one size fits all approach to benefits. We also don't generally cap what you pay in. For example if PRSI was really an insurance there would be a cap on what you pay in because what you can get out is definitely capped. I guess this goes back to the above point of one tax pot. Open to correction but the full non contributory pension is the same as the full contributory. Similarly JSA and JSB were the same. That is now changed or will do soon. A very welcome move. Covid really shone a light on how pool benefits are for people who lose there jobs after paying taxes all their lives. Maternity Benefits are not linked to what you have paid and when totalled are some of the worst in Europe, I think we get away with it due to it not impacting people in the public sector and generally MNC.

There used to be a PRSI ceiling.

The non-con pension is €11 less per week than the SPC.

Maternity Benefit used to be linked to pay, it was the final SI benefit to be flat-rated, maybe ten years ago.

Maybe the tide is turning, as you point out, JSB is to be linked to former earnings.

Should that be extended to IB and Maternity/Paternity?
 
For Your Information


Continental / conservative welfare regime

Started in Germany, circa 1880
Mainly based around social insurance
Co-operation typically between employers / unions
Often work-based sickness / health funds
Designed to maintain your occupational status
Benefits are linked to past earnings
Very little means-testing
Not designed for people who haven't worked
Social assistance is less generous than social insurance




Liberal / residual welfare regime

USA, UK, AUS
Lots of means-testing/ social assistance
Taxes tend to be lower
Less generous benefits (e.g. no dole in USA)
Benefits are often flat-rated, not linked to previous earnings (but not always, e.g. USA unemployment insurance = 50% of wages)
More privatisation, e.g. housing
Stigma attached to recipients?
 

"One Big Taxation Pot
We seem to operate a centralised tax pot where money is pooled and then divide up as per (political) needs. Taxes that may appear to have a defined use behind the scenes really don't. Public sector pension levies don't fund investment for public pension, PRSI doesn't get invested and fund pensions etc. This makes it difficult to defend any tax. Doesn't USC just go to general tax pot? While I understand the need for flexibility failure to ring fence monies has impacts on funding of less urgent needs. I know this is not how the Canadian Pension Plan works and even public sector Canadian pensions. It seems a reckless approach."

PRSI is separate from tax, and goes into the Social Insurance Fund (SIF). The SIF is used to finance social insurance benefits.

Social assistance benefits are paid for by general taxes. Yes, you are correct, PRSI is not invested.

I am a little confused. PRSI contributions are used for qualification for the state pension but it is not supposed to fund the state pension? What does the SIF fund?

There used to be a PRSI ceiling.

The non-con pension is €11 less per week than the SPC.

Maternity Benefit used to be linked to pay, it was the final SI benefit to be flat-rated, maybe ten years ago.

Maybe the tide is turning, as you point out, JSB is to be linked to former earnings.

Should that be extended to IB and Maternity/Paternity?

Fair correction but my general point still stands. In Canada for example you get Old Age Security regardless of contributions and Canadian Pension Plan based on contributions. You don't lose OAS because you qualify for CPP.

Interesting the direction we have gone. 274euro a week maternity pay may feel reasonable if a person was on min wage but if taking a drop from say 70k/yr it feels very poor.

Personally I think people value a return for their taxes and the knowledge that a safety net is there should they lose their job. I hope that the JSB change will prove a success.

I also note that the free GP for children is an attempt to widen the net of those who benefit and offer a return.

For Your Information


Continental / conservative welfare regime

Started in Germany, circa 1880
Mainly based around social insurance
Co-operation typically between employers / unions
Often work-based sickness / health funds
Designed to maintain your occupational status
Benefits are linked to past earnings
Very little means-testing
Not designed for people who haven't worked
Social assistance is less generous than social insurance




Liberal / residual welfare regime

USA, UK, AUS
Lots of means-testing/ social assistance
Taxes tend to be lower
Less generous benefits (e.g. no dole in USA)
Benefits are often flat-rated, not linked to previous earnings (but not always, e.g. USA unemployment insurance = 50% of wages)
More privatisation, e.g. housing
Stigma attached to recipients?

Interesting. Canada has a legit Employment Insurance, you only pay in what can be protected. Its mandatory and acts like insurance, the fact its mandatory means its a lot cheaper than buying unemployment insurance.

I think there is far less stigma associated with collecting that (of course you would collect on an insurance you have paid into every week) vs the Dole which feels like more of a handout than insurance claim.
 
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Not sure all benefits are entirely capped… for instance you can have a chromic or serious illness and you get a lifetime of healthcare, have a dozen children and you get lots of maternity care and leave and child benefit…

State mat pay is limited, if you are on 100k salary you don’t get extra though so in some respects it is limited. P’d me off no end… but at the higher end these days employers will often top up.

I heard recently that carers benefit is means tested, surely that can’t be right? Mat benefit isn’t so why would carers benefit?

Unemployment assistance I don’t know much about, fortunately. I always understood that if you voluntarily gave up work you wouldn’t qualify, for a while anyway which makes sense. I know a few people who’ve been on the dole for years and seem to be able to stay that way. And I’ve come across people who have to undergo regular medical examinations to stay on illness benefits, makes sense. But unfit for work and having 4 kids while unfit does make one wonder… surely there are suitable jobs?

I don’t believe that there is the same stigma about dole as there is about welfare in the USA.

But I’d dread the move to a USA style healthcare system. Families going bankrupt due to cancer treatment? THats scary. And 3 week mat leave! Inhuman
 
Thanks Protocol.
You can add Invalidity Pension and Widows Contributory Pension to the list of SIF payments
 
I heard recently that carers benefit is means tested, surely that can’t be right? Mat benefit isn’t so why would carers benefit?

It is and it isn't!

The eligibility criteria state as follows:

"if you are getting Carer’s Benefit, you must not work (this includes self-employment and voluntary work) or take part in a training or education course for more than 18.5 hours a week. The maximum amount you can earn and get Carer’s Benefit is €450 a week after tax."
 
My FIL has been on JSA for twenty years, he has never seriously looked for a job, as he doesn't want a job.

His nixer brings in 40k gross.

He has received 100,000 in third-level fees and grants.

As he says to me "why work?"

He recently paid 46,200 cash for a car.
 
We are the most socialist country in Europe so fairness doesn't come into it and we have the associated problems and inequities to reflect that. That's the starting point for all discussions of this nature.
 
Our tax and welfare system needs to be reviewed. There has to be a benefit to working rather than receiving and living off benefits. It is well known that Ireland is heavily reliant on Corporation tax and if this goes or is reduced we will suffer.

We are currently just living day to day as a State rather than treating Ireland Inc as a business. if we actually invested in our future as a State we would all be better off.
 
Our tax and welfare system needs to be reviewed. There has to be a benefit to working rather than receiving and living off benefits. It is well known that Ireland is heavily reliant on Corporation tax and if this goes or is reduced we will suffer.
Yes corporation tax is the key because the government is getting so much in from this tax it can dole out all this money on welfare and benefits and generally get away with it. If all this welfare spending was actually coming out of income tax there would be blue murder, probably welfare spending would be half its current level and we would have welfare payments similar to UK which doesn't act as a disincentive to work. Of course the government could choose to spend it on world class infrastructure like other European countries do but the political choice is to dole it out in welfare payments to keep the population quiescent
 
All PRSI paid by ee and er goes into SIF.



Here are the 2019 accounts of the SIF:



SIF pays out social insurance benefits:

  • JSB
  • IB = illness benefit
  • CB = Carers benefit
  • SPC
  • IP = invalidy pension
  • Maternity/paternity benefits
  • Treatment Benefit

Based on that contributory pensions are paid out of SIF. Doesn't seem to include non contributory which makes sense.

I guess the issue is that the pensions of today are paid out of the PRSI of today. Not sustainable.
 
Yes corporation tax is the key because the government is getting so much in from this tax it can dole out all this money on welfare and benefits and generally get away with it. If all this welfare spending was actually coming out of income tax there would be blue murder, probably welfare spending would be half its current level and we would have welfare payments similar to UK which doesn't act as a disincentive to work. Of course the government could choose to spend it on world class infrastructure like other European countries do but the political choice is to dole it out in welfare payments to keep the population quiescent

Yes, the flood of CT receipts has allowed the Govt to not have to make any hard decisions.

Exchequer%20Corporation%20Tax%2012-Month%20Rolling%202012-2024.png
 
Yes, the flood of CT receipts has allowed the Govt to not have to make any hard decisions.
But even when it comes to making hard decisions it doesn't cut welfare payments, it might tinker with them reducing access or stopping increases, look what happened during the financial crisis. Whereas they cut infrastructure spending completely and decimate the construction industry, also explains the severe infrastructure deficits in the country
 
Not sure all benefits are entirely capped… for instance you can have a chromic or serious illness and you get a lifetime of healthcare, have a dozen children and you get lots of maternity care and leave and child benefit…

State mat pay is limited, if you are on 100k salary you don’t get extra though so in some respects it is limited. P’d me off no end… but at the higher end these days employers will often top up.

I heard recently that carers benefit is means tested, surely that can’t be right? Mat benefit isn’t so why would carers benefit?

Unemployment assistance I don’t know much about, fortunately. I always understood that if you voluntarily gave up work you wouldn’t qualify, for a while anyway which makes sense. I know a few people who’ve been on the dole for years and seem to be able to stay that way. And I’ve come across people who have to undergo regular medical examinations to stay on illness benefits, makes sense. But unfit for work and having 4 kids while unfit does make one wonder… surely there are suitable jobs?

I don’t believe that there is the same stigma about dole as there is about welfare in the USA.

But I’d dread the move to a USA style healthcare system. Families going bankrupt due to cancer treatment? THats scary. And 3 week mat leave! Inhuman

True for many but far more common in large companies. It can be very difficult for a small company of say <10 to cover a persons good salary and also bring someone in.

My experience is that it leads to woman leaving smaller companies to go to public sector / multi nationals with better benefits when planning to have kids. Can't really be a good thing. Of course there are some professions / sectors where small companies are still far more common than larger.
 
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