Is Ireland a low taxation economy?

Re: low tax

Surveys do indeed support the claim that UK grass contains more chlorophyll than its Irish equivalent. On the other hand Irish residents do have the advantage of 40 shades to choose from. You pays your money...
 
Re: low tax

Faraway hills are greener...
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They certainly seem greener whenever I visit. :)

I'll say this though. For all we complain about our TD's, at least we don't have to listen to the Guffaws and Bawling that goes on in Westminster.

Give me the Babbling Bertie, Earnest Enda, and Perplexed Pat any day.

-Rd
 
Re: low tax

For all we complain about our TD's, at least we don't have to listen to the Guffaws and Bawling that goes on in Westminster.
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You obviously didn't tune into the Budget "debate" earlier in the month so. Unbelievable. And Oireachtas Report is the best comedy that RTE have made since, er, Quicksilver...
 
Taxes

Ya just don't get it!! It's useless just comparing just income tax rates today... or that we get onto the higher rate quicker than others etc.etc.etc.

The big difference between here and other countries is the social insurance payments (PRSI etc.).. Most other EU countries, and Germany and Scandinavian countries in particular have huge social insurance payments on top of their income tax. And the result: They've nice roads and everything works there!! When you add everything up, we have one of the lowest combined taxation/social insurance rates in the EU, if not the lowest. Hard to believe... but go abroad and you'll understand.

But what does that mean.. are we fooling ourselves? I firmly believe you get what you pay for, so if we're not paying high social insurance etc. then who's going to pay for the hospitals/roads? Hmmmmmmmmm....... well.... the magic guy in the sky with a big wallet? Hardly. Clearly, we are going to have to pay for these in some way at some time. Charlie has to get the money some way. At the end of the day if you do believe you get what you pay for, and everyone in the EU wants the same standard of living, then we'll all end up paying the same...whether that's direct, indirect, CGT, VAT, PRSI... etc. etc. etc. Stop getting hung up on individual rates, and some belief that everyone else is doing better than you. Far away hills.... they ain't green!
 
Re: Taxes

YakYak

The problem isn't that the government don't get enough money from the tax payer. The problem is what happens with the money when they get it.

We are not getting value for money right now, and the worst thing you can do with someone who's squandering money is give them more.

-Rd
 
Re: Taxes

firmly believe you get what you pay for, so if we're not paying high social insurance etc. then who's going to pay for the hospitals/roads?
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I disagree. The job done on the roads here is substandard. With a little bit of planning and accountability you can make less money go further. The way our infrastructure is administered, they'd probably do twice as much damage with twice as much money. What really did it for me was to see the abysmal job done on resurfacing the road near my house. Total waste of money.

As regards tax levels it appears Charlie is in favour of catching as many people as possible in the tax net, and thereby maximising revenue. He tries to figure out ways of doing this so that people will not evade tax. The government will take as much as they can get and use sophisticated 'risk analysis' methods to achieve this aim. I read an interview last year where he admitted this. Fair play to him, he's a cute hoor............but as regards the administration of our infrastructure........ its time for revolution!
 
Another Thing

A single person here on a low income (e.g. €15,000) will be expected to pay for GP visits, medicines, a certain amount if hospital stay is required, and for dental treatment).

Whereas someone in the UK who earns £10,000 (which is about the same amount) will not have to pay for GP consultations, medicines, hospital stay, dental treatment (if they use an NHS dentist), or bin collection.

In fact, up in Northern Ireland one can get all the above plus there is no water charges. I know someone who lives in Newry and their property tax is about £270 for the year. Plus goods are cheaper, presumably because there's a lower VAT rate.
 
Looking from the UK side of the pond, taxation in the RoI appears more complex (but perhaps I'm thick?) But surely the difficulty with making league-tables of tax rates and quality of life across EU countries is this; if a small country like Ireland wishes to have roads, health and education and environmental services, of the same standard as, for example, Germany or UK, then that would be a HIGHER CHARGE PER CAPITA of the population? No?
 
Looking from the UK side of the pond, taxation in the RoI appears more complex (but perhaps I'm thick?)
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As far as direct personal taxation goes the move from tax free allowances to tax credits a few years back simplified the calculation of income tax. PRSI/health levy calculations are still a little tricky. I think the UK use tax credits as well but I've no idea how National Insurance deductions are calculated.
 
No not necessarily. If the population is lower then by definition there are lower numbers in education, in health care system, on the roads etc. So tax does not necessarily have to be higher per capita of the population than a country with a higher population.

Also, if we're talking about health care, it is a disgrace that gp consultations and medicines are not paid for directly out of the public purse. Yes, there is a medical card system but according to the Oasis site one can only be obtained for a person under 66 years old if their Gross income is under €151 per week (about €7176 per annum, gross).

If taxes have to go up in order to pay for a health care system where anyone can go to a gp free at the point of use and obtain free medicines (at the point of use), then if taxes need to rise then in my opinion that is what should happen. I would rather pay more tax if I thought it would prevent the taxation of sick persons on low income, which is effectively what we presently do.

Incidentally according to the World Health Organisation, Portugal has (as far as I can recall) about the 7th best health care system in the world. Ireland is about 19th.

As far as I'm aware Ireland is more wealthy than Portugal. So, perhaps tax does not need to rise in order to produce a much better public health system.

But whatever the reason for the current state of our public health system it is something for which we should hang our heads in shame. IMHO we should be moving towards a system where most (if not all) public health care is delivered free at the point of use to all Irish citizens.

Concerning the question "Is Ireland a low taxation economy", it is probably a higher tax economy for those on low or middle incomes (when services which have to be paid for privately are taken into account).
 
just to pick up on one of your statements sean, i don't
see what's "disgraceful" about people who can well afford
it paying for services like visits to the gp, etc. i earn a
reasonable income and can afford to pay for gp visits,
occasional dentist visits, proscriptions, etc. i don't see how
this is a "disgrace"? i pay a lot of taxes but i don't see
why i should be entitled to gobble up government social
spending on things i can well afford to pay for myself. there
are people far more deserving of social welfare. spending it
on them might go some way towards tackling the real social
problems in this country instead of making swathes of
services "free" to everyone. less than 20% of the population
live in real poverty and suffer social deprivation. i'd rather
this sector were targetted with government spending and
social services. society as a whole benefits much more if a
child from a socially deprived background is given 35 quid
worth of school books or an hour of one-on-one teaching than
if someone on 50k a year or a wealthy pensioner gets a free
visit to the gp.
 
Darag,

I suppose the point is that given that we do pay for GP's Dentists etc. You'd expect that we would have a far more equatable society. We seem to have the worst of both worlds where you have to be in almost abject poverty to qualify for a medical card.

I don't think I should have my GP bill covered either, but in return for paying it I'd like to see far less people in the tax Net (i.e. nobody on the minimum wage should pay income tax) and far more people eligible for medical cards etc.

-Rd
 
Health Care

If public health was available free at the point of use, then you would still be paying for it Darag; through your taxes. If someone is on a good income then they pay a higher amount of tax which would constantly cover public health care at all times, and for the length of time you have the good income. You would not be paying more only when you as an individual become sick.

For example, if someone earns €7500 (Gross), we would say this was a very low income. However if they become sick they have to pay for gp consultations, medicines, carriage by ambulance, hospital stay etc. This would amount to a huge percentage of their take-home pay. If they have ongoing medical problems then they have to constantly pay for this year-on-year. Someone on €7500 is expected to pay for all their healthcare just as someone would who earns €80,000. That’s what I think is disgraceful, and I cannot see how anyone could see this as being fair.

If all public health care is paid for out of direct taxation, and free at the point of use, then people (especially on low income) would not be constantly concerned about being hit with a huge bill (as a percentage of their income) if they become sick. If it's free at the point of use they know exactly where they stand.

So people on a good income would still be paying their share of the public health care bill. They would be paying through the tax system, and not only when they as an individual become sick
 
Re: Health Care

you don't need to be in "abject" poverty to get a medical
card. about 40% of the population are covered by the
medical card system and receive completely free medical
care. sean, your 7500 a year example is silly because such a
person would certainly get free medical care in this country
including free gp visits and proscriptions.

the government has finite spending and so it must make
decisions about where the money goes. like i said i'd prefer
welfare money was spent on improving the suffering of the
disadvantaged and genuine hardship cases in our society
instead of being wasted on ideologically driven desires to
make stuff "universally free".

i prefer the system in this country than the uk's nhs even
though the execution of the health service here leaves a lot
to be desired. those who can afford it pay themselves by
buying insurance and government money is reserved to pay
for the needy who can't. i don't see anything at all repugnant
or disgraceful about this and i dunno why people get
indignant about this system.
 
Re: Health Care

those who can afford it pay themselves by
buying insurance and government money is reserved to pay
for the needy who can't.
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Everybody is entitled to free hospital care (bar some relatively small and capped per-visit and accommodation charges): . Most people buy insurance (and I believe that many people overinsure because they don't understand that higher cost plans often simply offer "better" accommodation - only if it is available and it's often not - rather than a higher level of patient care etc.) because they don't want to take the risk of ending up on waiting lists if they need a major operation done all of the sudden. The National Treatment Purchase Fund is supposed to be sorting out the waiting lists but I'm not familiar with how that's progressing.
 
Re: Health Care

the government has finite spending and so it must make decisions about where the money goes. like i said i'd prefer welfare money was spent on improving the suffering of the disadvantaged and genuine hardship cases in our society
instead of being wasted on ideologically driven desires to
make stuff "universally free".
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Hi Darag - The problem with this approach is that it inevitably creates poverty traps, e.g. people who are not encouraged to move from unemployment taking up relatively low-paid employment because they could lose the medical card facility for their family.

NB I'm not commenting on the rights/wrongs of this approach - just pointing out one impact that may not be immediately obvious.
 
Re: Health Care

i agree O; many people don't realise this and assume if they
don't have bupa or vhi and they require hospital care it will
cost them a fortune. the most i've ever heard anyone having
to pay was about 20 quid a day for their stay in hospital and
this isn't means tested or anything. i don't bother with
health insurance myself anymore for this reason.

i agree rainyday but i don't think this is a fundamental
problem with a means (or income) tested welfare system.
there are lots of bad boundaries in our welfare system but
this is because the government has never tried to make
welfare benefits "progressive" in the same way the tax
system is. a progressive welfare system would be much
more equitable and not just for healthcare.

if our tax system worked like our welfare system, then we
would pay tax along the lines of a fixed 8 grand tax bill
if you earn over 16 k a year. you can see how this would
disadvantage those earning between 16 and 24 k. the
non-progressive nature of our welfare system creates
similar traps.
 
Re: Health Care

Interesting
What do you reccommend for a healthy person in their late twenties and early thirties. Should they get health insurance, or is it just a waste of money under present circumstances? I
 
Re: Health Care

Having always had private health insurance I still find it hard to break the habit of having it even though I am a late 30 something in excellent health and no significant risk factors. However in the past few years I have moved to BUPA (cheaper than VHI and better service in my experience) and down to their most basic plan (pretty similar medical cover to more expensive plans but "only" covers public and some semi-private (?) accommodation expenses which suits me fine). As I mentioned above private health insurance with semi-private and private accommodation expenses cover doesn't guarantee that accommodation - it is always subject to availability and often limited in supply! As ever with insurance it all depends on the individual. I can certainly understand darag going without health insurance...
 
Health Care

According to the website I previously mentioned the Eu7500 figure I mentioned is not silly. The criteria is stated on the website.

I’m sure many people on good income here in Ireland do wish to retain the current system. They can live in the delusion that they are paying for their own health care (and therefore not detracting from public health). Yes they are paying for their own health care, though someone on a good income is, almost by definition in good health (obviously not always). Also, as they’re in a higher tax band, they will get a higher tax refund so they are actually paying less for their health care!

Those on low income are more likely to suffer from worse health, and they obtain less tax back on their health care! So, they have lower income, they spend more on their health care, they obtain less money back from the State. I can see why some wish to retain such a system. It means they can shirk their responsibilities to those less fortunate.

By the way, the system I mentioned would be free only at the point of use. Obviously it is not “free”. It’s simply another way of looking at something. Income tax would have to cover this health care. The upside is that there would be no gp consultation fees, no medicine fees, no hospital stay fees, no ambulance fees, no dental fees (as with NHS dentists) etc. That might not sound great to someone on good income as of course they most likely do not go to the gp often. They’re on good income, therefore they’re probably in good health. Though for someone on lower income it would be greatly beneficial. I can see where people on good income who are in favour of the current system are coming from. Obviously it benefits them.

Public health care in this country has to be looked at in a different way. With the current system, even with all the extremely hard work and dedication of nurses and doctors and other health care professionals, public health care in this country is in a dreadful state. According the the World Health Care Organisation, Irish public health care is ranked lower than UK public health care.

IMO, we should be sending health professionals to Portugal to learn about how a small country can provide a world class health system for it’s citizens
 
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