Irish Workers Highest Paid

[Purple]

I'm saying that there is a price below which people will not sell their skills after so many years of study and low pay.

I agree. You seem to presume that when I talk of the market I am only talking about the demand side. Input costs and returns relative to other jobs/professions are also factors which set the market price but it’s still demand led; if nobody want to buy your services they have no value.

People tend to divide into numerate and non-numerate.
I've yet to meet a former accountant working as a hair stylist.
I've never met a former beautician working in a science laboratory.
Both numerate and non-numerate people may be intelligent, articulate and learn quickly, but they will probably never cross their respective Rubicons.

I know a chemical engineer who started out as a painter decorator and only went back to college after he was married. He now has his PhD. I als know a medical doctor who runs a sandwich shop.

No, its not all determined by what the market will pay - its a balance between what the market will pay and what the seller must make to stay in business, compounded by the back that he/she is making up for over a decade of low pay.

If demand is below the input costs then suppliers will leave the market (the market will disappear) but price is still led by demand. Competition within the supply side of the market determines the selling price. If there is over-supply then the price will drop to a floor just above the combined input costs plus the minimum level above which suppliers will stay in the market.

Now you're thinking correctly - know any shop owners with a sign saying "charitable institution" over the door? Didn't think so.

You have completely missed the point.

I was drawing a distinction between a professional and a non-professional. Tradesmen are a different kettle of fish again.

There is no difference what so ever between professionals, non-professionals and trades people. They are all just people seeking to sell their skills.

We're all on this "competition is good for us" train, heading ever onwards in our race to the bottom.

“Race to the bottom” is a meaningless and dangerous phrase used by vested interests and those who seek to perpetuate social injustice in order to prevent the have-nots from getting equality.

My point is that there is a point below which professionals will not sell their services and that its no determined by the market per se - the market is the point at which equilibrium is reached between buyers of services and suppliers of services.

This is the case for anyone selling their services or products. So-called “professions” are irrelevant in this context.

This is a typical myth-understanding based on a dismissal of the small firms ability to attain a level of quality of work.
Larger firms can take on more work.
Larger firms can pay people to specialise.
It still comes down to an individual professional making the call.

Off topic but I’ve seen the incompetence of large firms answering very basic points first hand. My point is that a suburban lawyer is far less likely to know much about say. Chinese patent law. For that I’d go to a specialist firm. If I was a large company and wanted one law firm to represent me I’d use someone who covered the entire gambit and had pockets deep enough to fight long and complex cases.

That makes no sense.
I sit down with a solicitor, I'm on the clock.
I call a plumber out and there's a call out fee.
Both are in the phone book and get known by word of mouth.

If a solicitor comes to my house he charges me for getting there and then charges by the hour. If a plumber comes to my house he charges me for getting there and then charges by the hour. Yes, what was I thinking?

I am pointing out that the capitalist model has limitations.
Too much competition pulls the bottom out of the market and makes it unprofitable to provide the service.
In all your arguments you seem to ignore profit.
But profit and the lure of it it what drives capital markets.

Your first and last line contradict each other. I’ve made the point already that the market is more than the demand side.

If a civilization cannot support a competent professional class it doesn't deserve them.

That’s a bit to self-important for my liking. We live in a republic; we don’t have professional classes, we have lawyers, doctors, engineers, plumbers etc.

Nonsense - the interplay between supply and demand sets the rate.
Have you never seen a supply curve?
That's the price/quantity at which the professional will supply his/her services.
The demand curve is what the client is willing to pay.
Where these curves meet there is a market.

If the client offers too little there is no market.
The professional cannot exist supplying services unprofitably.
Ergo, the professional will be driven out of the market at those prices.

Covered already.

 

[Purple]

According to The Independent the ERSI are telling us that like-for-like jobs in the public sector are 25% better paid (job security etc is not taken into account but pensions are). According to RTE the socialists in unions, in utterances reminiscent of King Knut, have said that they will bring the country to its knees with strikes if the government attempts to level the playing field.

 

[Welfarite]

According to The Independent the ERSI are telling us that like-for-like jobs in the public sector are 25% better paid.

I don't know about the 'like-for-like' bit. On average, public sector workers tend to be better qualified, with 60 per cent holding some type of third-level qualification compared to 33 per cent of workers in the private sector. Public sector workers also have more work experience, an average of 20 years compared to 17 years for private sector workers. In addition, a higher proportion of public sector workers are in professional and associate professional occupations. All these factors would support public sector workers having higher earnings. Other noteworthy differences between the two sectors include hours worked – private sector workers were found to work longer hours (approximately 40 hours per week compared to 36 hours in the public sector). Furthermore, workers in the private sector were also more likely to undertake supervisory responsibilities. In terms of gender, 64 per cent of public sector workers were female compared to just 34 per cent in the private sector.​

 

[Purple]

from the Indo gives more details on the other factors. The article dates from June this year, it discussed CSO figures.

The major differential is at the lower end of the spectrum, not the top end.

 

[Shawady]

How can the ERSI compare like-for-like jobs but only give an average figure for the difference?
Why do they not give a breakdown for individual sectors?

 

[Purple]

How can the ERSI compare like-for-like jobs but only give an average figure for the difference?
Why do they not give a breakdown for individual sectors?

Ask then and let us know what they say.

 

[Shawady]

Ask then and let us know what they say.

Ah they wouldn't tell me.

But seriously, there must be at least some jobs that are better paid in the private sector. Might be an extreme example, but doctors get paid more in the private industry, isn't that why they do some owrk in public and make it up in the private clinics?
Also, I would find it hard to believe that public sector workers are paid 25% more than private workers in the area of finance or accountancy?

 

[Cheeus]

How can the ERSI compare like-for-like jobs but only give an average figure for the difference?
Why do they not give a breakdown for individual sectors?

Exactly. They talk about the education sector being higher paid 'on average'. It's no wonder if the likes of UCD can exceed pay scales to attract top academics, but then administrators have to be employed for about 10 years, have postgrads and generally be managing a few functions and people before they hit 35k.

Starting salaries for skilled admin workers with postgrads in the universities is about 25k - generally job descriptions inlcude having a language, marketing experience, web experience etc.. You can get 25k in the private sector just by dying your hair, putting on a bit of makeup, filing your nails and sitting on a reception desk.

They're not comparing like with like at all and relying on averages where at the top end you have university staff with huge salaries, bonuses and expenses - a million miles away from the entry level workers whose 'average' wage isn't much at all.

 

[Welfarite]

I suspect that the media are using the ESRI report (which in fairness does not say that they are comparing like with like) to stir up another Private Sector V Public Sector battle. When you read headlines that infer that the public sector is paid 25% more than the private sector, the inference is that the public secxtor are overpaid. This is not what the ESRI report shows at all, in my view.

What it does show is the disparity between lower paid grades in the public sector and private sector and the lessened disparity in the higher grades. That, to me, is the real message of the report. Public Service unions, over decades, have managed to get lower paid public servants pay hugely increased by linking it to higher paid grades in the Public sector. Unfortunately, there was no such weapon available to private sector unions to do the same for their lowly members' pay!

 

[becky]

Ah they wouldn't tell me.

But seriously, there must be at least some jobs that are better paid in the private sector. Might be an extreme example, but doctors get paid more in the private industry, isn't that why they do some owrk in public and make it up in the private clinics?
Also, I would find it hard to believe that public sector workers are paid 25% more than private workers in the area of finance or accountancy?

Consultants now start on €197k plus call outs. The private work is extra and I don't see any consultant giving up his/her public contract to work exclusively in the private sector.

In the HSE area I work in there are 8 Grade VIII's in Finance which off the top of my head is circa €70K pa.

 

[Shawady]

I suspect that the media are using the ESRI report (which in fairness does not say that they are comparing like with like) to stir up another Private Sector V Public Sector battle. When you read headlines that infer that the public sector is paid 25% more than the private sector, the inference is that the public secxtor are overpaid. This is not what the ESRI report shows at all, in my view.

What it does show is the disparity between lower paid grades in the public sector and private sector and the lessened disparity in the higher grades. That, to me, is the real message of the report. Public Service unions, over decades, have managed to get lower paid public servants pay hugely increased by linking it to higher paid grades in the Public sector. Unfortunately, there was no such weapon available to private sector unions to do the same for their lowly members' pay!

Fair points Welfarite. The irony is that when pay cuts come, they will be smaller for the lower paid. Look at the pension levy - a 5% cut for someone on 25K compared to an 8% cut for someone at 60K.

 

[Purple]

Unfortunately, there was no such weapon available to private sector unions to do the same for their lowly members' pay!

Thankfully they didn't or there'd be no jobs left in the country!

 

[Cheeus]

What it does show is the disparity between lower paid grades in the public sector and private sector and the lessened disparity in the higher grades.

They need to publish a breakdown of roles and salaries before they make across the board cuts. Is there a document somewhere that details the disparity between lower paid grades in public and private sector in detail?

 

[annet]

I don't know about the 'like-for-like' bit. On average, public sector workers tend to be better qualified, with 60 per cent holding some type of third-level qualification compared to 33 per cent of workers in the private sector. Any empirical evidence to suggest that public sector workers are better qualified or there is a higher percentage that holds third level qualifications. Having seen what are many public servants in quite responsible positions - I have concluded that anybody can get a degree but obtaining a degree doesnt gaurantee that that person is competent either in professional practice or the application of their learned skills-base. Can I have this reference is it the ESRI report - too early to go researching?

Public sector workers also have more work experience, an average of 20 years compared to 17 years for private sector workers. Is the 20 years of work experience confined to the public service and do employees in the private sector gain more in their professional development by virtue that they can move between organisations that have multiple areas of specialisms, expertise and cultures.

In addition, a higher proportion of public sector workers are in professional and associate professional occupations. All these factors would support public sector workers having higher earnings. I would agree with this in relation to professional and associated professional occupations be them consultants, regs, sho's, academics, accountants, solicitors etc.... however consultants can operate in public and private - many choose to practice in private only, some consultants are shareholders and directors of major private hospitals, the five large accountancy firms are not owned by the state - although the state contracts them - and as for accountants the same applies - the state uses certain large accountancy firms - applying the appropriate consultancy and professional fees.

Other noteworthy differences between the two sectors include hours worked – private sector workers were found to work longer hours (approximately 40 hours per week compared to 36 hours in the public sector). True but public sector workers have family friendly policies and flexible working patterns.

Furthermore, workers in the private sector were also more likely to undertake supervisory responsibilities. Wouldnt this come down to the management systems that exist in the public service.... supervisory responsibilities for a consultant in the private sector dont generally arise - as they mostly operate a single practice without the classic multi-disciplinary team support. This would contrast heavily with their public sector work. I would have thought that people in management grade in the public service across the various dept's ie, EO, HEO, AO would have some level of supervisory responsibility for programmes, projects and human/social capital. Obviously at principal officer and secretary general level we are talking about managerial, policy, fiscal and corporate governance which I would have expected would include some supervisory elements!

In terms of gender, 64 per cent of public sector workers were female compared to just 34 per cent in the private sector.​

can comment - no knowledge and then there's the time of the night!


In summary, public sector workers need a reality check.... if we adopt a human and social capital approach - workers get what they are worth - in economics - there is supply vs. demand - in an over-supply of workers looking for jobs - wage rates naturally go down - the public service should not be immune from the basics of economics. From what I can see trade unions are self serving - members need to ask questions are they best representing your interests when you pay your subscription - or are they playing the game of social partnership - which they are still members of! In sociology and social policy - I learned that government is a handmaiden to industry - likewise - are unions handmaidens to govt?

 

[ashlinn09]

I forgot:

auditors fees
accountants fees

I have to agree with the above inclusion of the accountant salary being too much -- my friend just had to pay for one to get everything in order, and the bill was a bit high. There are some great ideas in these latest posts; really enjoy following this one....

Ashley

 

[con2580]

i have worked for a large chain pharmacy for five years, i get paid really badly €9.08 an hour for the amount of time i have worked there. is there anything i can do about this.If i question it in work i am told there is plenty of people to fill my job any suggestions what of what i could do to improve this ?

 

[Purple]

Increase your skill level or get another job.
Your employer is paying you the market rate for your skills so why should they pay you more?

 

[goingforgold]

People I agree with Beanpole and others, we really have to get real in this country in regard to social welfare. My brother and father are currently on welfare. My father took voluntary redundancy two months ago. Basically he had 3 years to retirement and the company paid him more than what he would have earned to go now! On top of this he was then entitled to draw his stamps for 12 months at 204.30 per week. My father owns a lot of property and land and has substantial savings. My brother is a recent graduate and lives at home. He was means tested for welfare and because my father is now technically unemployed, my brother gets 204.30 per week also. Only regular income was taken into account when my parents income was assessed. The value of land, property, savings was not taken into account for my brothers assessment.

Now my brother has disposable income of 204 euro per week and no expenses. There is no incentive for him to work. This is my family and even I am complaining. It's a complete joke. The whole thing needs to be revolutionised!

 

[csirl]

You often here in the media about public servants being paid X% more than public servants in UK, Germany etc. and how our public servants should have their pay reduced to UK/Germany levels.

People forget that the entire economy is like this. Compare private sector pay in Ireland with private sector pay in UK, Germany etc. and you'll get similar percentage differences. Wages in Ireland are higher than most other countries, doesnt matter what sector.

 

[csirl]

I don't think Irish industrial workers on 25k-40k are overpaid.

The following are overpaid:

landlords (commercial rents way too high)
bank executives
most other executives
barristers
solicitors (even though many are unemployed)
medical consultants
dentists
judges
teachers + guards (well more like underworked in terms of days)

An industrial worker in the UK would consider themselves very lucky if they earned 12-15k per annum. Are Irish industrial workers overpaid by UK standards?