Okay, so it grossly understates the levels of wealth because it excludes wealth that cannot be made liquid. Strange since it is absolutely real wealth and easy to put a value on.
Irish Wealth / net worth distribution
- Thread starter SPC100
- Start date
Allpartied
Registered User
- Messages
- 507
That would be down to the other word in the discussion.
Wealth is one thing, fair distribution is another.
https://www.credit-suisse.com/about-us/en/reports-research/global-wealth-report.html for anyone who wants to dig deeper. They state that their methodology generally reports more millionaries than other reports.
They are trying to report across every country, so they might be somewhat limited by data sources that they can easily get for each country.
It seems like public & db pensions are the elephant in the room for the results, that would likely bring a lot (10 percent ?) of adults in Ireland into the 1 million bracket.
But state pensions would also effect the distribution in a lot of other countries, they highlight that nordic countries wealth (as measured here) is lower, as they have very generious state pensions, so people don't accumulate as much wealth. I think multiple other countries have state pensions related to your earnings.
They are trying to report across every country, so they might be somewhat limited by data sources that they can easily get for each country.
It seems like public & db pensions are the elephant in the room for the results, that would likely bring a lot (10 percent ?) of adults in Ireland into the 1 million bracket.
But state pensions would also effect the distribution in a lot of other countries, they highlight that nordic countries wealth (as measured here) is lower, as they have very generious state pensions, so people don't accumulate as much wealth. I think multiple other countries have state pensions related to your earnings.
Because there's more to life than one metric (money / wealth).
Sophrosyne
Registered User
- Messages
- 1,577
Correct - data with varying degrees of reliability.
Much of the data required to compile a country's wealth is not in the public domain.
Therefore, where does Ireland stand in the wealth rankings?
Who knows?
Last edited:
And the definition of "fair" is yet another.
What can be said is that we redistribute a greater share of earned income that any other country in the EU.
Left wing parties are strongly against wealth redistribution, as can be seen in their opposition to our existing wealth tax.
We have a strongly left wing populist media, spearheaded by our Public Sector Broadcaster, RTE. That is a big part of the reason that the national discussion on this topic is so one-eyed and ridiculously ill-informed.
We also have a strong left-wing lean in third level institutions. My son did a college project on "Capitalism and Hunger" and had to ignore most of the data so that he didn't upset his Lecturer.
Surely "socialism and hunger" would be more correct, stalinist socialism along maoist socialism in China caused more starvation than anything else in the twentieth century. Oh and how can we forget Cambodia , the kmher rouge and its year zero ideology trying to obtain the most pure form of socialism.
Even in eastern Europe in the best food producing countries in the world there were food shortages during communism in the 80s. Now we have putin trying to resurrect the Soviet Union causing global food shortage again
That's the stuff he had to ignore.
He also has to ignore socialism and climate change; that's all the fault of Capitalism too, the facts and evidence be damned.
This is CSO data on wealth:
| Table 2.1 Summary of results | ||
| Households with asset/debt | Median value 1 | |
| % | € | |
| Real assets | ||
| Household Main Residence (HMR) | 69.6 | 260,000 |
| Land | 8.9 | 300,000 |
| Other Real Estate Property | 12.5 | 236,600 |
| Self Employment Business Wealth | 15.2 | 19,700 |
| Vehicles | 79.1 | 10,000 |
| Valuables | 78.3 | 4,100 |
| Any Real Asset | 95.3 | 253,100 |
| Financial assets | ||
| Savings | 96.6 | 8,700 |
| Bond or Mutual funds | 13.6 | 5,000 |
| Shares | 10.5 | 5,800 |
| Voluntary Pension | 16.3 | 37,600 |
| Other Financial Asset | 7.2 | 10,000 |
| Any Financial Asset | 97.1 | 13,300 |
| Debt | ||
| Mortgage on HMR | 30.4 | 124,400 |
| Mortgage on Other Property | 7.2 | 104,800 |
| Non-mortgage loan | 45.5 | 7,300 |
| Overdraft | 6.7 | 600 |
| Credit Card debt | 26.8 | 700 |
| Any Debt | 68.1 | 25,000 |
| 1 Conditional on participation. |
NoRegretsCoyote
Registered User
- Messages
- 5,766
I'm always a bit sceptical about these "Irish billionaire" lists. Very few of them actually live in Ireland and I suspect very little of their wealth or income is taxed here.
Here is the list.
Does the wealth originate in Ireland? No. Do they live in Ireland? No. Does they pay much tax in Ireland? Very little.
Does the wealth originate in Ireland? No. Does he live in Ireland? Wikipedia says he lives in London. Does he pay much tax in Ireland? Likely not very much.
Does the wealth originate in Ireland? Mainly, yes. Does he live in Ireland? He is tax resident in Malta. Does he pay much tax in Ireland? Presumably less than if he was still tax resident here.
Does the wealth originate in Ireland? No. Does he live in Ireland? No. Does he pay much tax in Ireland? No.
Does the wealth originate in Ireland? Largely, yes. Does he live in Ireland? Yes. Does he pay much tax in Ireland? Yes.
Does the wealth originate in Ireland? No. Does he live in Ireland? No. Does he pay much tax in Ireland? No.
Does the wealth originate in Ireland? Largely, yes. Does he live in Ireland? He is tax resident in Switzerland. Does he pay much tax in Ireland? Presumably less than if he was still tax resident here.
So, of the nine, only five were raised in Ireland. Four of the five them have left. The other four seem to have acquired Irish citizenship through naturalisation and otherwise don't live here or have much connection. Eugene Murtagh of Kingspan is the only one of nine "Irish billionaires" who was raised in Ireland, made his money from an Irish-controlled business, and has stayed.
I can only conclude that Ireland is not a friendly place to be a billionnaire!
Here is the list.
Does the wealth originate in Ireland? No. Does he live in Ireland? Not clear, but likely no. Does he pay much tax in Ireland? Likely very little.
Does the wealth originate in Ireland? No. Do they live in Ireland? No. Does they pay much tax in Ireland? Very little.
Does the wealth originate in Ireland? No. Does he live in Ireland? Wikipedia says he lives in London. Does he pay much tax in Ireland? Likely not very much.
Does the wealth originate in Ireland? Mainly, yes. Does he live in Ireland? He is tax resident in Malta. Does he pay much tax in Ireland? Presumably less than if he was still tax resident here.
Does the wealth originate in Ireland? No. Does he live in Ireland? No. Does he pay much tax in Ireland? No.
Does the wealth originate in Ireland? Largely, yes. Does he live in Ireland? Yes. Does he pay much tax in Ireland? Yes.
Does the wealth originate in Ireland? No. Does he live in Ireland? No. Does he pay much tax in Ireland? No.
Does the wealth originate in Ireland? Largely, yes. Does he live in Ireland? He is tax resident in Switzerland. Does he pay much tax in Ireland? Presumably less than if he was still tax resident here.
So, of the nine, only five were raised in Ireland. Four of the five them have left. The other four seem to have acquired Irish citizenship through naturalisation and otherwise don't live here or have much connection. Eugene Murtagh of Kingspan is the only one of nine "Irish billionaires" who was raised in Ireland, made his money from an Irish-controlled business, and has stayed.
I can only conclude that Ireland is not a friendly place to be a billionnaire!
So DB pensions are not included. That greatly skews the data and misrepresents the facts. It’s hard to believe that a bunch of people with DB pensions in the CSO would ignore them when calculating household wealth. Go figure…
Gordon Gekko
Registered User
- Messages
- 7,848
Why would a DB pension be included?
The capital value of a DB pension is notional.
If I’ve a million quid and I go off to Irish Life and buy an annuity that pays me €30,000 a year, I no longer have a million quid.
The capital value of a DB pension is notional.
If I’ve a million quid and I go off to Irish Life and buy an annuity that pays me €30,000 a year, I no longer have a million quid.
The CSO survey follows these definitions:
Publicly Traded Shares
Publicly traded shares are shares that are listed on a stock exchange or other form of secondary market, i.e. they can be bought and sold there.
Valuables
This includes items such as jewellery, works of art, antiques etc.
Self-employed Business
These are businesses in which somebody in the household is either self-employed in or has an active part in running the business. Examples would include a self-employed plumber, partner in an accounting firm or the director and part-owner of a haulage company.
Savings
This includes items such as all types of deposit and savings accounts as well as positive balance on current accounts
Mutual Funds
Money market funds (MMF) are defined as those collective investment undertakings the shares/units of which are, in terms of liquidity, close substitutes for deposits. They are funds primarily invested in money market instruments, MMF shares/units and in other transferable debt instruments with a residual maturity of up to and including one year.
Bonds
These are bearer instruments, are usually negotiable but do not grant the holder any ownership rights to the institutional unit issuing them. They provide the holder with the unconditional right to a fixed or contractually determined variable money income in the form of coupon payments (interest) and/or a stated fixed sum on a specified date or dates or starting from a date fixed at the time of issue. The issuer owes the holders a debt and is obliged to repay the principal and interest (the coupon) at a later date, termed maturity. A bond is generally transferrable from one person to another. For the purposes of HFCS, Post Office savings bonds and prize bonds are classified as ‘Bonds’.
Voluntary Pensions and Life Assurance
These are personal (voluntary) plans, access to which is not linked to an employment relationship. Individuals independently purchase and select material aspects of the arrangements without intervention of their employers. Some personal plans may have restricted membership (i.e.to the self-employed, to members of a particular craft or trade association, to individuals who do not already belong to an occupational plan, etc).
Holders of life insurance policies, both with profit and without profit, make regular payments to an insurer (there may be just a single payment), in return for which the insurer guarantees to pay the policy holder an agreed minimum sum or an annuity, at a given date or at the death of the policy holder, if this occurs earlier. Term life insurance, where benefits are provided in the case of death but in no other circumstances, is excluded here
Gross Wealth
This is defined as the sum of real and financial assets.
Only certain assets and liabilities are included. In particular, the present value of all future, expected defined benefit pensions is excluded, which can be a sizable portion of the wealth of many households. The present value of future, voluntary, expected defined contribution pensions is included.
Net Wealth
This is defined as gross wealth less total debt.
Publicly Traded Shares
Publicly traded shares are shares that are listed on a stock exchange or other form of secondary market, i.e. they can be bought and sold there.
Valuables
This includes items such as jewellery, works of art, antiques etc.
Self-employed Business
These are businesses in which somebody in the household is either self-employed in or has an active part in running the business. Examples would include a self-employed plumber, partner in an accounting firm or the director and part-owner of a haulage company.
Savings
This includes items such as all types of deposit and savings accounts as well as positive balance on current accounts
Mutual Funds
Money market funds (MMF) are defined as those collective investment undertakings the shares/units of which are, in terms of liquidity, close substitutes for deposits. They are funds primarily invested in money market instruments, MMF shares/units and in other transferable debt instruments with a residual maturity of up to and including one year.
Bonds
These are bearer instruments, are usually negotiable but do not grant the holder any ownership rights to the institutional unit issuing them. They provide the holder with the unconditional right to a fixed or contractually determined variable money income in the form of coupon payments (interest) and/or a stated fixed sum on a specified date or dates or starting from a date fixed at the time of issue. The issuer owes the holders a debt and is obliged to repay the principal and interest (the coupon) at a later date, termed maturity. A bond is generally transferrable from one person to another. For the purposes of HFCS, Post Office savings bonds and prize bonds are classified as ‘Bonds’.
Voluntary Pensions and Life Assurance
These are personal (voluntary) plans, access to which is not linked to an employment relationship. Individuals independently purchase and select material aspects of the arrangements without intervention of their employers. Some personal plans may have restricted membership (i.e.to the self-employed, to members of a particular craft or trade association, to individuals who do not already belong to an occupational plan, etc).
Holders of life insurance policies, both with profit and without profit, make regular payments to an insurer (there may be just a single payment), in return for which the insurer guarantees to pay the policy holder an agreed minimum sum or an annuity, at a given date or at the death of the policy holder, if this occurs earlier. Term life insurance, where benefits are provided in the case of death but in no other circumstances, is excluded here
Gross Wealth
This is defined as the sum of real and financial assets.
Only certain assets and liabilities are included. In particular, the present value of all future, expected defined benefit pensions is excluded, which can be a sizable portion of the wealth of many households. The present value of future, voluntary, expected defined contribution pensions is included.
Net Wealth
This is defined as gross wealth less total debt.
Sophrosyne
Registered User
- Messages
- 1,577
Is it not a question of fund ownership?
Ownership entails control over an asset.
Defined benefit schemes are managed by the employer. The employee has no control of the fund.
By contrast, defined contributions plans are owned and controlled by the employee.
Last edited:
Gordon Gekko
Registered User
- Messages
- 7,848
They’re held in trust for the employee as I understand it (i.e. DC pensions).
But a DB is just a promise.
It’s 100% correct to exclude DB pensions. The discussion seems more about public sector bashing TBH.
But a DB is just a promise.
It’s 100% correct to exclude DB pensions. The discussion seems more about public sector bashing TBH.