irish water

[Purple]

I can vividly recall a time (vividly, because its not long ago at all) under the previous government when we couldnt borrow, we had the IMF, the economy was in a bad way.

Now unemployment is falling (& employment is increasing - so its not just emigration), the economy is growing, we can borrow at rates as low as nil, we're replacing the most expensive of our debt, we're nearing the end of austerity. Plenty of reasons to be cheerful.

If Irish people insist on punishing the current government for the hardship we had to endure then they are very short sighted indeed. Maybe you'll say the IMF dictated all that was done, there's certainly something in that, but I dont think Ml Noonan has put a foot wrong - whether we get our 'special deal' or not wont be his fault.

Look at the alternatives, do you want FF back? - its only yesterday they were in a bunker with Cowen ignoring the EU & yer wan from Donegal Mary.... floundering around. SF??, leave it out!, that's right lads, a 3rd rate of tax will fix everything - "the rich" should pay for everything, no need people to pay for services they consume .... and you're not allowed to mention to bodies people are still digging out of bogs....we're now sanctimonious and bearing the high moral ground. Wake up SF voters, you've had your protest, you dont really want to throw away the progress do you?, you're only hurting yourself.....

+1 from me as well.
SF are populist, isolationist and have an outdated ideology based on begrudgery and pettiness.

I find the conversation about Irish water interesting and depressing. It typifies much of what’s wrong with the Irish psyche. Basically the discussion is around how people won’t pay the charges and how they won’t be fined etc when they don’t. There is no discussion around civic responsibility and the fact that the people who don’t pay are effectively making their neighbours and fellow citizens pay instead. There is no discussion about doing the right thing because it’s the right thing to do. We are like children in a classroom “getting away with it” when the teacher is outside the door. We need to grow up.

 

[Sunny]

I don't agree at all. The vast vast majority have no problem paying water charges. The problem I have and what many people have is the Irish Water was set up. Set up costs were huge when we were initially told that the basic system and billing infrastructure was in place from other utility companies. Yet we still spend 50m on consultants. The majority of properties are not metered and a sizeable number never will. How is that fair? Irish water was set by taking a huge number of staff from local authorities that they didn't need and then announce that the numbers will drop naturally over the next couple of years. Heard that one before. Next we hear about a politicians driver being put on the board. And then finally we hear that the overstaffed organisation are in line for bonuses. Sorry, performance related pay.

It's all very saying the country needs to grow up but maybe we need to start standing up for ourselves more when we see the HSE mark II being created or when we allow a government raid private pension funds just because they can. It's all very well jumping up and down when people talk about supporting SF but you can blame people when you see how FF and FG have acted since they got into power. Maybe instead of insulting people's intelligence we need to look at why parties like SF and the UKIP in the UK are attracting huge support. Not everyone who votes for these parties are simpletons or don't understand the nature and business of politics.

 

[Betsy Og]

Sunny, there's no denying that the set up is flawed, but bottom line is that not paying the charge isnt going to fix that. I'd say the conscientious objectors about the set-up costs are vastly outnumbered by the wont pay/reclaim the street type nonsense.

 

[blueband]

I don't agree at all. The vast vast majority have no problem paying water charges. The problem I have and what many people have is the Irish Water was set up. Set up costs were huge when we were initially told that the basic system and billing infrastructure was in place from other utility companies. Yet we still spend 50m on consultants. The majority of properties are not metered and a sizeable number never will. How is that fair? Irish water was set by taking a huge number of staff from local authorities that they didn't need and then announce that the numbers will drop naturally over the next couple of years. Heard that one before. Next we hear about a politicians driver being put on the board. And then finally we hear that the overstaffed organisation are in line for bonuses. Sorry, performance related pay.

It's all very saying the country needs to grow up but maybe we need to start standing up for ourselves more when we see the HSE mark II being created or when we allow a government raid private pension funds just because they can. It's all very well jumping up and down when people talk about supporting SF but you can blame people when you see how FF and FG have acted since they got into power. Maybe instead of insulting people's intelligence we need to look at why parties like SF and the UKIP in the UK are attracting huge support. Not everyone who votes for these parties are simpletons or don't understand the nature and business of politics.

+1 great post sunny, you have said as it as a huge amount of people in this country see it.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Sunny you nearly had me convinced there, you had me seething at the paddywhackery of it all and then you go and blow your argument by implying it is the exact same in the UK. I suppose same in France, Germany, US etc.

 

[Betsy Og]

+1 great post sunny, you have said as it as a huge amount of people in this country see it.

One suspects that that same huge amount of people would not be..ahem..unduly exercised about the issue (insert any vernacular phrase you'd like) were it not for the fact that they are being asked to part with some money. Methinks the giving out about the set-up is just a convenient hook. Are we to understand that if IW was set up as a model of minimalist efficiency that the queues to sign up would stretch back the street??, I have to say I fear not...

 

[Purple]

Hi Sunny, Everything you say about Irish Water is correct. That doesn’t change the fact that there is a charge in place and the people who do pay will be subsidising those who don’t. It doesn’t change the fact that people will not pay because nothing will happen to them and notions of social and moral duty just don’t occur to most Irish people. We still have a post-colonial mind-set when it comes to the state and the government. I hear very few people talk about their responsibility as citizens.
The fact that the structures in Irish Water as so bad, that there is so much over-staffing and that bonuses are paid out in an obtuse and unaccountable fashion just means that Irish Water is the same as just about every other state body.
If people think that a far left isolationist party like SF are going to change that in any positive or constructive way then they are stupid. That’s not insulting their intelligence; it’s just the way it is.

 

[Sunny]

Sunny you nearly had me convinced there, you had me seething at the paddywhackery of it all and then you go and blow your argument by implying it is the exact same in the UK. I suppose same in France, Germany, US etc.

It is the same. Look at European politics. Do you think Ireland is unique on seeing a shift away from centre politics? People

 

[Sunny]

Hi Sunny, Everything you say about Irish Water is correct. That doesn’t change the fact that there is a charge in place and the people who do pay will be subsidising those who don’t. It doesn’t change the fact that people will not pay because nothing will happen to them and notions of social and moral duty just don’t occur to most Irish people. We still have a post-colonial mind-set when it comes to the state and the government. I hear very few people talk about their responsibility as citizens.
The fact that the structures in Irish Water as so bad, that there is so much over-staffing and that bonuses are paid out in an obtuse and unaccountable fashion just means that Irish Water is the same as just about every other state body.
If people think that a far left isolationist party like SF are going to change that in any positive or constructive way then they are stupid. That’s not insulting their intelligence; it’s just the way it is.

Is it any more stupid than believing that FG would introduce a new way of doing politics? Is it more stupid than supporting a party that would remove medical cards from a small nimber of sick and dying children because they think it is the best political option? Is it as stupid as allowing a Government raid private pension funds and steal people's savings?

I voted FG last election. I don't feel particularly clever these days.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

It is the same. Look at European politics. Do you think Ireland is unique on seeing a shift away from centre politics? People

Well yeah, I thought you were kinda arguing that this was paddywhackery.

But are you arguing that across the Western world we should give SF, UKIP, Le Penn etc. a chance to do it better?

 

[Betsy Og]

Is it more stupid than supporting a party that would remove medical cards from a small nimber of sick and dying children because they think it is the best political option?

I think they're a bit all over the shop on that one. In the same breath they want (or at least did want) free GP care for all u6 and universal health insurance. I have some faint hope that Leo will chose the right path - I find him to be very straight talking - that said he's in "Angola" so O'Connell & Parnell wont be patch on him if he fixes that mess.

 

[Betsy Og]

But are you arguing that across the Western world we should give SF, UKIP, Le Penn etc. a chance to do it better?

When you list them it just shows there's no consistency to the message, we've got the 'reds under the bed' and they've got the 'flog 'em and send 'em home brigade'. The only thing in common is anti-establishment, its relatively easy be anti, its when the ball is delivered to your feet, what are you going to do with it? From what I can see the Shinners are not covering themselves in glory in the North, and this is on day to day stuff, the stuff many voters in the south seem happy to put them in control of.

There may be many deep flaws in the current government, but they're lucky the opposition seems fractured and less credible.

 

[michaelm]

It's a pity that they didn't continue funding water through general taxation and issue water bonds (which would ultimately be self-financing) to raise the money to fix the water infrastructure.

 

[blueband]

It's a pity that they didn't continue funding water through general taxation and issue water bonds (which would ultimately be self-financing) to raise the money to fix the water infrastructure.

not as much of a 'stroke' to be pulled there though.
whats the betting that in few years down the road we will be spending millions on a tribunal into how irish water was set up?.....but of course Enda will be well out of the frame by then!

 

[Deiseblue]

The unfortunate corollary to the introduction of water charges is that SF by adopting an ill judged , populist opposition to such a charge will undoubtedly increase their already burgeoning popularity.
The key word in SF's canon is populist - reasoning that nobody ever lost votes by vowing to abolish an unpopular charge allied to a pledge to tax the rich & introduce a wealth tax if elected , the fact that their financial strategies were created in Noddyland matters not a whit to them !
On the upside , from my point of view , it does appear as per Mr. Howlin's comment in recent days it does appear that the negotiations on ameliorating public sector pay cuts will take place next year & hopefully the question of a living wage will be tackled in the short term - the continuing rise in SF's popularity adds to the pressure in tackling such measures as we head towards the next election.

 

[Delboy]

The key word in SF's canon is populist - reasoning that nobody ever lost votes by vowing to abolish an unpopular charge allied to a pledge to tax the rich & introduce a wealth tax if elected , the fact that their financial strategies were created in Noddyland matters not a whit to them !

That sounds like all of the left wing parties to me....PbP/AAA/Judean People's Front (how many names do this crowd operate under?)and most of the Independents

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

SF beaten at their own game in Tallaght

That is great news - the electorate want to protest, fair enough, but are getting nervous that by exercising that protest through SF, they might get what they wish for

 

[Purple]

Is it any more stupid than believing that FG would introduce a new way of doing politics? Is it more stupid than supporting a party that would remove medical cards from a small nimber of sick and dying children because they think it is the best political option? Is it as stupid as allowing a Government raid private pension funds and steal people's savings?

I voted FG last election. I don't feel particularly clever these days.

In fairness to the Shinners they are open about wanting to raid people's savings and pensions; they want a wealth tax.
Taking medical cards from "a small number of sick and dying children" (a bit emotive there Sunny, not like you) was not a populist option; they were seeking to make sure that only those that needed them received medical cards. It was ham-fisted and ill though out and easy ammunition for the "will someone please think of the children" brigade but the idea of limiting welfare payments to those who actually need them is a good idea. Joan Burton has done a good job of it in the Department of Big Brother will Protect You.
I know a guy with a severely disabled child. That child has a medical card and they will receive a grant to upgrade their house to allow their child to move around. That all sounds well and good but the household income is north of €300'000 per year. They don't need the money; they can afford to pay for it themselves.

 

[Purple]

I see that people on low incomes will not be paying water charges. I thought that this would actually be a tax everyone paid but it seems that the small percent of citizens who pay the lion’s share of all the other taxes will have to pay this one as well. That explains why the allowances are so low.

 

[Purple]

There has been a massive amount of energy, money, column inches and public debate expended around the issue of Water Charges. The government and the public servants who actually run things must be delighted about the direction and nature of that debate. The battle has been fought along pay or don’t pay lines. The side discussion has been around the size and pay levels of the new Irish Water company.
The first battle, pay or don’t pay, was always going to be lost; the state will always get their money.
The second issue is as intractable and complex as general pay levels in public bodies and state salaries. There are far too many people with a vested interest in not opening that Pandora’s Box for it to ever be tackled properly so that was a hiding to nowhere as well.

The discussion should have been around infrastructure, water quality levels, service delivery and targets, accountability of board members and, crucially, accountability of senior managers etc. so that the customer had a real sanction if this new body didn’t do its job properly. If the same energy was expended on those issues we may have ended up with a service most of us were happy to pay for.