Interesting look at how green EV actually is

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It's a wonder we're not all being led to install electric heating in our homes, or are we?
 
Guys - this is a reasonable question to ask.

We should be able to have a balanced, adult discussion of it.

Stay on topic and don't descend into the personal insulting that took the other thread off topic.

Brendan
 
Volvos findings are that an EV produces less CO2 emissions once it reaches 77000km. The average mileage in Ireland is 17000km/year, so a car only needs to be on the road for 4.5 years to be cleaner (CO2 wise) than a petrol/diesel. So the vast vast majority of cars would produce less CO2 emissions as an electric. And that’s using Volvo figures, which you could argue might not be without conflict; this Reuters analysis puts the figure at 22000km for a country that doesn’t rely heavily on coal.

However the narrative around how electrified transport is better than fossil fuels is too focused on CO2 emissions in my view.

While important, this debate misses the more imperative (to our lifetimes) reasons for switching:
  • Air pollution like SOx, NOx and particulate matters are highly localised (a few meters from the road makes a big difference) so EVs reduce exposure to these in cities to nearly zero (still a bit of tyre/brake dust)
  • Paris is currently installing noise monitors to automatically fine drivers of noisy vehicles because of the damage excessive noise pollution does to people, electrified transport solves this
  • The war in Ukraine is funded by oil and the greatest weapon Putin has is oil (the threat of cutting off oil to Europe mid-winter has drastically defanged the sanctions we could apply). Rapidly build more renewable energy sources and electrify transport so we need less fossil fuels and you cut off the main supply of funds to regimes like Russia, Saudi etc that are inflicting misery on the world and remove the incentive for the west to be interfering in the Middle East and causing misery for the people there
 
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The issue as I see it is three fold. .

1. There is responsibility on the manufacturers to source parts and components more sustainably. Particularly cobalt and lithium. They need to drive down the environmental costs of production of EVs. The consumer cannot do it.

2. The methods of charging EVs. The energy suppliers/government have to ensure that the energy created to charge EVs comes from renewables. This is really difficult but not impossible. The problem here is globally, not just Ireland. We have plenty of opportunity here but lack the will.

3. The consumer. The ability for people to financially go EV/hybrid. It’s more expensive at the start especially if you go down solar panel route for charging. The infrastructure is not right here yet. I think most people would like to potentially go down the EV route. I’ve heard a lot of people say ‘next car’ or ‘in for or five years when the tech is better’.

While the argument from Volvo might be true at the moment, increased r&d in the sector eill eventually make the environmental cost if production of EVs much less. But the Manufacturers need to lead on this I think and drive the change (excuse the pun). If I’m not mistaken I think Toyota or Lexus have stopped producing petrol/diesel only cars completely abs only produce EVs abs hybrids.

All that aside we must reduce, reduce, reduce our fossil fuel consumption
 
banjopotato said:
I think the important thing is that with BEVs, they become greener as the fuel mix for generating electricity becomes greener.

There is no such effect with ICE vehicles.
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If anything petrol/diesel cars eventually end up going in the opposite direction entirely as they start to burn more oil/fuel, the environmental devices wear (or in many cases are removed!), more catch fire than EVs etc.
 
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Zenith63 said:
Volvos findings are that an EV produces less CO2 emissions once it reaches 77000km.
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I found that point interesting, and I remembered that the Polestar 2 is vegan (it seems to be endorsed by PETA!), so should have a good shot.

They seem to have produced a comprehensive Lifestyle Assessment report (which I haven't read). It concludes:
This study shows a break-even point of almost 50,000 km for the wind-powered Polestar 2, significantly below the driving distance of 200,000 km used as functional unit. When considering a global average electricity mix, the break-even point is at about 112,000 km for Polestar 2, also below the 200,000 km mark
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78k km per EU28 average electricity mix. Very interesting.
 
The battery tech hopefully will improve and become more environmentally friendly. Move away from precious metals etc. You can already retro fit older EVs with newer batteries.

In the long run EV are simpler machines. Easier to maintain and fix. Less brake wear which is a major pollutant. Downside is major parts can be eye wateringly expensive.
 
mathepac said:
How many green fuel mix sources are available to us in Ireland?
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Certain suppliers generate/import only from green sources, notably Energia. I realise that all electricity on the grid is from all sources, but choosing a green provider at least incentivises the use of renewables.

As for the overall fuel mix, according to this, in 2020, the all-island renewable proportion of electricity generated here was 58% or so; https://www.cru.ie/wp-content/uploa...nd-Emissions-2020-Information-Paper-V.2.1.pdf

This tells a slightly different story, but overall I’d say an EV in Ireland is greener than one in a great many other places. https://www.seai.ie/data-and-insights/seai-statistics/key-statistics/electricity/
 
Itchy said:
I found that point interesting, and I remembered that the Polestar 2 is vegan (it seems to be endorsed by PETA!), so should have a good shot.

They seem to have produced a comprehensive Lifestyle Assessment report (which I haven't read). It concludes:


78k km per EU28 average electricity mix. Very interesting.
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The source of the energy used to produce the batteries is important. The batteries produced in Europe are much cleaner than those produced in China but Chine produces 65% of the global total and has 80% of the global capacity (source). Germany is second and with their move away from Green Energy production their CO2 figures will get worse.
The future is EV though. That's certain. The only question is now much better they are and how fast that will improve.
 
Frank said:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/content/news/petrol-or-electric-which-is-actually-greenest

EV is government policy.

The advertising would lead us to believe the EV is hugely cleaner,
Zero emissions yes, but that is not the full story

Not a hater, I think my next car could very well be Electric, but not until they come down in price.

No question just food for thought.
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The link "petrol-or-electric-which-is-actually-greenest" is quite humorous. Neither is remotely green but EV is far greener than Petrol.
 
PGF2016 said:
The link "petrol-or-electric-which-is-actually-greenest" is quite humorous. Neither is remotely green but EV is far greener than Petrol.
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Yep, public transport or your bicycle is far greener than any type of private car.
I'll keep my diesel for the moment but continue to cycle and walk as often as possible.
 
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also (apart from the obvious benefits of getting people to use alternative options for short journeys in particular); not enough is being done to encourage smaller vehicles. How much of the benefit of electrification is being lost if people are still tooling around on their own in 2-tonne SUVs (even worse if the trend for pick-up trucks follows over from the US as well). You don't need 2 tonnes of metal and batteries to go buy a litre of milk. There should be a higher relative subsidy for smaller EVs.
 
shweeney said:
also (apart from the obvious benefits of getting people to use alternative options for short journeys in particular); not enough is being done to encourage smaller vehicles. How much of the benefit of electrification is being lost if people are still tooling around on their own in 2-tonne SUVs (even worse if the trend for pick-up trucks follows over from the US as well). You don't need 2 tonnes of metal and batteries to go buy a litre of milk. There should be a higher relative subsidy for smaller EVs.
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there is in reality, the more expensive the car the less subsidy, its generally the smaller non SUVs that are cheaper.
 
shweeney said:
also (apart from the obvious benefits of getting people to use alternative options for short journeys in particular); not enough is being done to encourage smaller vehicles. How much of the benefit of electrification is being lost if people are still tooling around on their own in 2-tonne SUVs (even worse if the trend for pick-up trucks follows over from the US as well). You don't need 2 tonnes of metal and batteries to go buy a litre of milk. There should be a higher relative subsidy for smaller EVs.
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Like the USA good grief
All the SUV's you speak of are small cars in the US.
A 2.0 is considered a large engine in Ireland.

The Mazda CX5 very similar weight to a Mazda 6
https://carbuzz.com/compare/mazda-cx-5-vs-mazda-mazda-6#cars=i_81604-vs-i_81905
Weight is close
SUV is shorter, width is the same, SUV is taller.
Drag in the SUV is of course worse so this effects mpg.

Unless you are talking about the full size Range Rover then SUV's are not big cars.

As for the pickups The USA pickup is hardly the same as the Hilux or Ford ranger
These are generally bought to meet a purpose for the owner to buy 2 L of Milk and eggs.
 
shweeney said:
There should be a higher relative subsidy for smaller EVs.
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I think that's an excellent idea.

Gross vehicle weight could be a starting point for identifying the "city car" classes, with these getting free municipal parking, free city electric charging, discounted toll fees, use of bus lanes during peak traffic times, specialist shorter parking spaces allowing for greater density of cars/km of street space, etc. Brilliant
 
mathepac said:
I think that's an excellent idea.

Gross vehicle weight could be a starting point for identifying the "city car" classes, with these getting free municipal parking, free city electric charging, discounted toll fees, use of bus lanes during peak traffic times, specialist shorter parking spaces allowing for greater density of cars/km of street space, etc. Brilliant
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Hopefully that won't worsen road safety risks. https://www.iihs.org/topics/vehicle...provides,better protection in frontal crashes.
 
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